Iraqis loot the Central Museum... Update: some of the Bush administration folks think it is our fault!

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Thanks for the boring lecture. It is BESIDE the point. The ADMINISTRATION did NOT inform the Commanders in the Field to make it a PRIORITY to protect the museum. That is NEGLIGENCE as they were well aware of its importance

Asshat, because there was absolutely no indication or reason to "inform the commanders in the field to make it a priority to protect the museum". Is any of this getting through? One more time, read this as many times as necessary:

The understanding was that museum authorities were prepared to fend-off any looters. There was never any request by cultural and antiquity authorities for Coalition forces to give special attention to the museum, outside of the request to avoid bombing or attacking it.

NO, it's not. The INVADING army is responsible for the protection of these treasures. The Adm UNDERestimated the number of troops needed - that is all. WRONG. The Adm was warned to protect the treasures.

The Administration was never warned to "protect the museum". Again, I'll keep saying it until you get it, the only warning given to the administration or military planners by the UNESCO and Iraqi cultural authorities was a request for Coalition forces to avoid bombing or attacking the building. That is all!

Its called an 'occupying' force, not an 'invading' force. And the responsibility is a general one, not an absolute or particularized one. The responsibility is to restore law and order to the occupied area, which we have in fact done for the most part. But you have to gain total control of an area in order to restore law and order, which does not happen instantaneously, no matter the size of your force. Indeed, the looting began well before Coalition forces had control of the city. That is not a 'failure', its the realities of civil unrest and war.

Not the SAME. Iraq was INVADED by the US/Britain in a govenment change. International law is clear. THAT IS WHY Bush Admin is SCRAMBLING for "damage control".

International is clear. The duty is a generalized one, not an absolute. The duty is to restore order and prevent lootings to the extent we are reasonably able to prevent it. We were not reasonably able to prevent it, the lootings were well underway long before order could be established.

Those are the breaks in war. That's why they call it war.

However, you are CONVENIENTLY IGNORING the fact that the US invading forces DID KNOW about the museum's importance but those in charge IGNORED the WARNING about looting.

Fortunately - unlike you who seems blissfully ignorant of any "issues" - the Bush Adm IS dealing with the criticism with "damage control".

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Thanks for the boring lecture. It is BESIDE the point. The ADMINISTRATION did NOT inform the Commanders in the Field to make it a PRIORITY to protect the museum. That is NEGLIGENCE as they were well aware of its importance

Asshat, because there was absolutely no indication or reason to "inform the commanders in the field to make it a priority to protect the museum". Is any of this getting through? One more time, read this as many times as necessary:

The understanding was that museum authorities were prepared to fend-off any looters. There was never any request by cultural and antiquity authorities for Coalition forces to give special attention to the museum, outside of the request to avoid bombing or attacking it.

NO, it's not. The INVADING army is responsible for the protection of these treasures. The Adm UNDERestimated the number of troops needed - that is all. WRONG. The Adm was warned to protect the treasures.

The Administration was never warned to "protect the museum". Again, I'll keep saying it until you get it, the only warning given to the administration or military planners by the UNESCO and Iraqi cultural authorities was a request for Coalition forces to avoid bombing or attacking the building. That is all!

Its called an 'occupying' force, not an 'invading' force. And the responsibility is a general one, not an absolute or particularized one. The responsibility is to restore law and order to the occupied area, which we have in fact done for the most part. But you have to gain total control of an area in order to restore law and order, which does not happen instantaneously, no matter the size of your force. Indeed, the looting began well before Coalition forces had control of the city. That is not a 'failure', its the realities of civil unrest and war.

Not the SAME. Iraq was INVADED by the US/Britain in a govenment change. International law is clear. THAT IS WHY Bush Admin is SCRAMBLING for "damage control".

International is clear. The duty is a generalized one, not an absolute. The duty is to restore order and prevent lootings to the extent we are reasonably able to prevent it. We were not reasonably able to prevent it, the lootings were well underway long before order could be established.

Those are the breaks in war. That's why they call it war.

However, you are CONVENIENTLY IGNORING the fact that the US invading forces DID KNOW about the museum's importance but those in charge IGNORED the WARNING about looting.

Fortunately - unlike you who seems blissfully ignorant of any "issues" - the Bush Adm IS dealing with the criticism with "damage control".

The only problem is the crooks had the keys and this appears to be an inside job.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: apoppin


Fortunately - unlike you who seems blissfully ignorant of any "issues" - the Bush Adm IS dealing with the criticism with "damage control".

The only problem is the crooks had the keys and this appears to be an inside job.

Please reread the story . . . only PART of the "looting" was organized. The UNorganized "part" (the mob "riot") was - by far - the most destructive (since the artifacts can never be recovered along with the all-important records of their discovery).

Evidently, the organized theives USED the mob's violence as a COVER for the theft.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: apoppin


Fortunately - unlike you who seems blissfully ignorant of any "issues" - the Bush Adm IS dealing with the criticism with "damage control".

The only problem is the crooks had the keys and this appears to be an inside job.

Please reread the story . . . only PART of the "looting" was organized. The UNorganized "part" (the mob "riot") was - by far - the most destructive (since the artifacts can never be recovered along with the all-important records of their discovery).

I guess you did not hear that these artifacts are already popping up on the black market. It cannot be denied that someone with the keys opened the vault. Since these items are already surfacing on the black market, most will be recovered at a price.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: apoppin


Fortunately - unlike you who seems blissfully ignorant of any "issues" - the Bush Adm IS dealing with the criticism with "damage control".

The only problem is the crooks had the keys and this appears to be an inside job.

Please reread the story . . . only PART of the "looting" was organized. The UNorganized "part" (the mob "riot") was - by far - the most destructive (since the artifacts can never be recovered along with the all-important records of their discovery).

I guess you did not hear that these artifacts are already popping up on the black market. It cannot be denied that someone with the keys opened the vault. Since these items are already surfacing on the black market, most will be recovered at a price.

I guess I DID hear. Clearly, THAT IS what I am talking about in the above.

The mob's damage cannot be undone - that is the major damage the US could have and should have prevented. Likely, then the organized theft would have been curtailed if there was no "cover" of rioting and looting.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Well look on the bright side... at least oil are well gaurded. After all, thats what really matters.

Pffftt all that crap about the priceless treasures from the past, bleh we dont need that crap. I dont give a rat's ass about history of human civilization, no one will miss it except whiney hippy liberals .

You're not serious are you?

I'm not

I thought so. Cheers

 

[Alistar7]

some artifacts have been found going into Jordan and will be returned...

 

[apoppin]

More fuel for the fire - excerpts:

"I thought we made the case enough with the military that the museum was going to be the No.1 protected site in Iraq," said McGuire Gibson, an archeologist at the University of Chicago. "And I had been part of a group that had worked up a series of locations for over 5,000 sites."

"The fact there ? were soldiers about 100 yards away while the looting was taking place for two days was shocking and was just indescribable and maddening," said Gibson, who is president of the American Association for Research in Baghdad and the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute.

ABCNEWS' John McWethy reports from the Pentagon that U.S. officials likely wish they had paid more attention to things like protecting the museum. But, he says, U.S. officials had geared the war plan primarily toward speed. By finishing the war as soon as possible, officials hoped to keep collateral damage to a minimum.

That is cold comfort to scholars, including many Americans, who remain outraged that their own government did not do more.

That sentiment was behind the resignation of three of nine members of a presidential advisory board. Their resignations were largely symbolic, since their terms were ending soon anyway. But the three chose to protest what one called a preventable tragedy.

"There was much information available to the administration and specifically to the Pentagon from all of the antiquities experts in this country about the need to protect that museum and the archaeological sites. And somehow it didn't happen," said Martin Sullivan, former chair of the White House Cultural Property Advisory Committee, who stepped down Thursday.

 

[DZip]

I heard it was just a lot of old sh!t anyway. The Iraqi's did the looting and it is their stuff anyway.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: DZip
I heard it was just a lot of old sh!t anyway. The Iraqi's did the looting and it is their stuff anyway.

They don't keep "a lot of new sh!t" in a museum.
(you are right about one thing it's the iraqi stuff the US troops let 'get away')

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: DZip
I heard it was just a lot of old sh!t anyway. The Iraqi's did the looting and it is their stuff anyway.

Wow, a lot of "old sh!t" in a museum? How could that be. By your logic, it would be ok if we decided to loot the Smithsonian tomorrow, after all, it's the American people's old sh!t anyway, isn't it?

 

[Alistar7]

was it ever asnwered how the most valuable pieces were taken from steel vaults? Why were some hidden offsite out of concerns of looting MONTHS BEFORE the war, but not everything? Reports of an organized planned, possibly, foreign robbery persist.

Where was the concern and outrage over cultural artifacts when it was Saddam hiding weapons and troops in historic holy sites and internationaly recognized historical sites?

This seems rather one-sided, there hardly seems to be any blame being placedd on the looters themselves. No blame on the Iraiq's for INADEQUATELY addressing their own legitimate fears of looting motnhs before the war, no blame on the looters, just blame for the military force that gave them the freedom THEY abused.

 

[Alistar7]

Looters who stole Iraqi antiquites from the national musuem had keys to the vaults and opened safes, suggesting they were professionals, experts said in Paris.

I guess I have been to hard on the Iraqi's charged with collecting all that stuf and placing it in the vaults for protection from looting, good call on their part, too bad it was an inside job.......

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
If a retarded gay monkey with Turrets ran on the Democratic ticket in '04, he would have my vote.

Your stupidity is showing. People like you make me wish we had an oligarchy.

 

[LilBlinbBlahIce]

Originally posted by: tk149

Originally posted by: LilBlinbBlahIce
If a retarded gay monkey with Turrets ran on the Democratic ticket in '04, he would have my vote.

Your stupidity is showing. People like you make me wish we had an oligarchy.

Good for you.

 

[LivinOnTheEdge]

Originally posted by: PELarson

Originally posted by: apoppin
It depends on your "priorities".

Protecting Oil fields and the Oil Ministry was a priority of the US forces; no one "cared" in the Bush Administration about "Iraq's heritage" UNTIL they got severe criticism from the rest of the world.

They are responding by "locking the gate after the thieves are gone" and sending in the FBI to recover what PROPER PLANNING should have easily prevented.

have to agree. Figure the Bush Administration gave the military orders to plan the creation of a political and civic vacuum via a war and then they went to DisneyWorld until the war was over. A freakin' cluster f**k brought to us by GW son of the Bush!

Totally agree. That museum was of cultural importance to the whole world, not jsut Iraq. What a shame. makes me sick really.

 

[ConclamoLudus]

I think its poetic in a way. Sure it is sad that this world's heritage is being destroyed, but for what these people have endured for 30 years...

We could have probably protected it, but I'm kind of glad we didn't. Its chaotic and explosive, but it will give way to a better order eventually. I'm more dismayed that the hospitals were looted so badly. This looting of the museums will probably be considered therapeutic ten years from now.