Iraqis Increasingly Taking Fight to Enemy

[yllus]

Iraqis Increasingly Taking Fight to Enemy, Petraeus Says
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 14, 2005 ? Iraqi security forces are taking the fight to the enemy and will need to work to sustain their momentum, the U.S. Army general responsible for training the Iraqis said here today.

Army Lt. Gen. David Petraeus, commander of Multinational Security Transition Command Iraq, spoke with reporters traveling with the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers.

Petraeus said the Jan. 30 Iraqi elections provided a boost to the security forces. Iraqis manned the two inner lines around more than 5,000 polling places nationwide. Insurgents launched more than 270 attacks on Jan. 30, but did not penetrate any polling place, he said.

Following the elections, the general continued, the Iraqi forces got a boost in morale for their fine showing, and the Iraqi people developed trust in the security apparatus. This respect has meant more recruits for the Iraqi army and police, and a greater role in the defense of their own country.

Iraq has 96 operational combat battalions today, Petraeus said. The battalions are out in the cities and rural areas of the country. They are going on independent operations and they are getting results, the general said. Iraqi forces are ?shouldering the burden? in 12 of Iraq?s 18 provinces -- the three Kurdish provinces in the north and the nine provinces in the south.

Some 145,000 Iraqi soldiers and police are trained and equipped. ?That just means they are trained for the element that they are a part of, and they have their individual equipment,? the general said.

--

I haven't seen any numbers floated about the Iraqi security force for a while - 145,000 seems terrific when it's merely 2005. The election sure seems to have taken the wind out of the insurgent's sails lately, as a lot of security focus thinktanks estimated.

It also sounds like the north of Iraq is proving a hard nut to crack - if anyone is daring to venture into it at all. Could be a bad omen of a future partitioning of the country, though as elections become a regular event and life under democracy becomes more of a known factor, likely everyone will come around.

 

[conjur]

145,000 trained? Are those Rumsfeld's/DiRita's numbers? Remember Sen. Biden's comments that about 4000-5000 have been properly trained to handle combat duty? Of the 145,000 trained so far, some have received just initial training and many have fled or even gone so far as to join the other side. The training of Iraqis will be a long, drawn-out process.

 

[Alistar7]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s...050314/ts_nm/iraq_dc&cid=564&ncid=1473

"We call on the Iraqi government to close all Arab embassies," said a protestor in Baghdad's Shi'ite Sadr City district as others yelled "No to Syria."

After breaking into the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad and tearing down the flag, protesters called on all foreign Arabs to leave the country and denounced Jordan's King Abdullah.



Have a question about the recent Iraqi elections, I'm sure someone here can answer it for me. I just wanted to know the % of eligible voters that participated, for comparision to US voter turnout in national elections.

 

[yllus]

Sounds like it's a number once stated by Defense Secretary Rumsfield, and agreed upon by Lt. Gen. David Petraeus, Commander, Multinational Security Transition Command Iraq.

DONNELLY: How will we know that the mission in Iraq is accomplished and our forces can leave? Can that ever happen if our troops remain under attack?

RUMSFELD: The answer is yes, it can happen and it will happen. We -- the United States of America does not put forces into a country to leave them there; we put them in there to help that country get on its feet and then leave.

What we're doing is important. We are training Iraqis in the police, in the army, in the national guard, in the border patrol, so that they can assume the responsibility for their own security. We have no desire to stay there and provide security in that country or in any other country.

And we have gone from zero to 95,000 Iraqis that are fully trained, fully equipped, providing their own security. They'll be up to about 145,000 Iraqis by the end of this year, fully trained, fully equipped. There are some another 50,000 of them that are not fully trained or fully equipped yet but that have been recruited and are capable of doing some things, relatively modest things, but not fully providing security.

-- Success in Iraq Lies Ahead, But Timing Uncertain, Rumsfeld Says

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s...050314/ts_nm/iraq_dc&cid=564&ncid=1473

"We call on the Iraqi government to close all Arab embassies," said a protestor in Baghdad's Shi'ite Sadr City district as others yelled "No to Syria."

After breaking into the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad and tearing down the flag, protesters called on all foreign Arabs to leave the country and denounced Jordan's King Abdullah.

I don't see the relevance to the topic, but spirit of non-communication aside it's nice to see Iraqis making use of their right to protest. Considering the meddling that outside Arab countries have been doing in Iraqi for decades.

The, uh, break-in may have been going a little far.

 

[conjur]

Just as I thought. A total BS and propaganda number.


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld...,3632396.story?coll=la-headlines-world

During confirmation hearings for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, senators challenged her assertion that the Pentagon had trained more than 120,000 Iraqi policemen and soldiers.

That number, they said, included more than 50,000 police officers who were given as little as three weeks of basic training.

"Time and again this administration has tried to leave the American people with the impression that Iraq has well over 100,000 fully trained, fully competent military police and personnel. And that is simply not true," Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, told Rice. "We're months, probably years away from reaching our target goal."

At Monday's hearing, Defense Department officials defended the practice of including in the official totals policemen who had gone AWOL. Unlike Iraqi soldiers, they said, police officers do not sleep in barracks and are not closely tracked by the Interior Ministry.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7041426/

[SEN. BIDEN:] You know, all that fight about how many troops are trained or not, well, they sent up the supplemental, in the jargon of your listeners, additional money for Iraq, and in it they put the truth. "We have trained 90 battalions, but only one--we have 90 Iraqi battalions, `Only one is trained.'" We got a long way to go. They finally figured it out. They're working on it, and if we stay clear on this and provide this to--you know, bring in the rest of the community, the rest of the world, and set up, in effect, a contact group, we have a shot to help them navigate themselves through a very difficult period here.

 

[yllus]

Okay, so where is Democrat Senator Biden of Delaware getting his information - "Only one [battalion] is trained."? Care to source it since you seem to believe it?

Hey, I think I like this Senator Biden. Op-ed Piece by Joseph R. Biden Jr.:

The elections in Iraq hold the possibility that a government and constitution seen as legitimate by Iraq's main factions can emerge in the months ahead. They also create an opportunity for the Bush administration to finally make Iraq the world's problem, not just our own.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that "the time for diplomacy is now." The proof will be in the administration's effort -- and success -- in getting more help to train Iraqi security forces and build Iraq's infrastructure. In the days leading up to President Bush's trip to Europe this month, the administration should make a diplomatic full-court press to do just that.

Our allies claim to be concerned about the plight of the Iraqi people. Now is their chance to prove it. It is time for them to get over their differences with the Bush administration and act in their own self-interest to promote a stable, unified, representative Iraq. The elections give them political cover to explain their help as a response to the Iraqi government, not the U.S.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: yllus
Okay, so where is Democrat Senator Biden of Delaware getting his information - "Only one [battalion] is trained."? Care to source it since you seem to believe it?

From his trips to Iraq with fellow Senate Foreign Relations Committee member Chuck Hagel.

Perhaps you'll find Spewsmax credible (if you can get past the biased rhetoric in the article)
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/12/5/124504.shtml

"We've won everything we've tried to do, including Fallujah," Biden told ABC's "This Week." "But then we've lacked the resources to secure what we've won. And we're still paying an awesome price for the initial failures on policy of this administration, of going in with too little power and too little legitimacy."

Biden had just returned from a trip to Iraq with his Senate Foreign Relations Committee colleague Chuck Hagel, who told reporters on Thursday, "I did not find one commander who said to me, 'We're winning.'"

Biden said he agreed with that assessment, telling "This Week," "That's clearly my impression."

Notice that was Republican Chuck Hagel making the comment "I did not find one commander who said to me, 'We're winning.'"

 

[Alistar7]

Just wanted to include that as another example of current Iraqi attitudes regarding foreign intervention in the reshaping of their new democracy. For all the claims this "insurgency" is broadly supported there appears to be a growing sentiment against their presence as opposed to US forces.

I applaud the Iraqis for their eagerness and rapid assumption of control of their self rule and the direction of their countrys future.

 

[Starbuck1975]

145,000 trained? Are those Rumsfeld's/DiRita's numbers? Remember Sen. Biden's comments that about 4000-5000 have been properly trained to handle combat duty? Of the 145,000 trained so far, some have received just initial training and many have fled or even gone so far as to join the other side. The training of Iraqis will be a long, drawn-out process.

Not as long and drawn out as some of you might like to think...the Iraqi Army was far from an unprofessional rabble of civilians in military garb...the greatest mistake we made was disbanding the Iraqi military machine after the end of the ground war.

As people gain confidence in the Iraqi security forces and police, it will swing the momentum away from the insurgents.

The training that soldiers require for combat and security forces require for stabiltiy are to seperate things...while Iraqi security forces may not have the training to take over the American military's mission for seeking out and destroying insurgent strongholds, an increased security footprint will limit the insurgents ability to operate.

 

[yllus]

Op-ed Piece by Joseph R. Biden Jr.:

During Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's confirmation, much was made of the dueling numbers she and I advanced regarding Iraq's security forces. Rice said there are about 125,000 trained Iraqi security forces. I maintained that the real number was between 4,000 and 18,000. What explains the discrepancy?

By one measure the Bush administration is right: As of today, there are about 136,000 "trained and equipped" Iraqis. But that measure is meaningless. Indeed, a year ago, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld boasted of 210,000 Iraqis in uniform and called it "an amazing accomplishment."

Police: According to the administration, there are 57,290 trained Iraqi police. The key word is "trained." Yet holdovers from the Saddam Hussein era possess none of the skills we expect from our police.

National Guard: As of Jan. 19 the administration listed 36,827 guard members on duty. The Iraqis have since integrated the guard into the army, which now totals 56,284. he guard was expected to be the tip of the counterinsurgency spear. Its members receive six to seven weeks of training, but there is minimal focus on counterinsurgency skills.

The police and guard make up 94,000 of the 136,000 "trained and equipped" Iraqis. The army, border enforcement units and specialized forces make up the rest. Yet despite their courage few can operate independently against the insurgency. Their ability to take on other key missions, such as providing basic law and order, is unproven.

After more than a year of drift, the administration took a critical step in the right direction: It put Gen. David Petraeus in charge of the security training. He has added counterinsurgency to the police curriculum, emphasized leadership skills and building cohesive units, and developed special forces with much longer training times. As a result some Iraqis are starting to get the equipment, training and leadership skills they need to fight the insurgency. They include police commandos (about 5,000), special intervention forces (about 9,000), SWAT teams and other specialized forces (about 4,000). These forces total some 18,000 men.

But that is far short of the administration's 136,000 estimate. And of those 18,000, many are rookies with little experience. Indeed, in testimony Thursday before the Senate Armed Services Committee, senior administration officials couldn't say how many Iraqi forces can operate independently against the insurgency. That's why I believe the number of Iraqis prepared to take on the insurgency is somewhere between 4,000 and 18,000.

112,000 men by his rough count. I imagine he's generally correct - as General Petraeus said, "That just means they are trained for the element that they are a part of, and they have their individual equipment." Obviously the Iraqi forces don't have a smidgen of the average time in uniform that an established country's armed forces would have.

Like everything else there, the army is starting from scratch. Great to see that 100,000+ Iraqis have signed up to secure their country.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

145,000 trained? Are those Rumsfeld's/DiRita's numbers? Remember Sen. Biden's comments that about 4000-5000 have been properly trained to handle combat duty? Of the 145,000 trained so far, some have received just initial training and many have fled or even gone so far as to join the other side. The training of Iraqis will be a long, drawn-out process.

Not as long and drawn out as some of you might like to think...the Iraqi Army was far from an unprofessional rabble of civilians in military garb...the greatest mistake we made was disbanding the Iraqi military machine after the end of the ground war.

As people gain confidence in the Iraqi security forces and police, it will swing the momentum away from the insurgents.

The training that soldiers require for combat and security forces require for stabiltiy are to seperate things...while Iraqi security forces may not have the training to take over the American military's mission for seeking out and destroying insurgent strongholds, an increased security footprint will limit the insurgents ability to operate.

The Iraqi Army was largely Sunni. The new Iraqi National Guard is almost all Shi'a. See the difference?

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: yllus
Op-ed Piece by Joseph R. Biden Jr.:

During Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's confirmation, much was made of the dueling numbers she and I advanced regarding Iraq's security forces. Rice said there are about 125,000 trained Iraqi security forces. I maintained that the real number was between 4,000 and 18,000. What explains the discrepancy?

By one measure the Bush administration is right: As of today, there are about 136,000 "trained and equipped" Iraqis. But that measure is meaningless. Indeed, a year ago, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld boasted of 210,000 Iraqis in uniform and called it "an amazing accomplishment."

Police: According to the administration, there are 57,290 trained Iraqi police. The key word is "trained." Yet holdovers from the Saddam Hussein era possess none of the skills we expect from our police.

National Guard: As of Jan. 19 the administration listed 36,827 guard members on duty. The Iraqis have since integrated the guard into the army, which now totals 56,284. he guard was expected to be the tip of the counterinsurgency spear. Its members receive six to seven weeks of training, but there is minimal focus on counterinsurgency skills.

The police and guard make up 94,000 of the 136,000 "trained and equipped" Iraqis. The army, border enforcement units and specialized forces make up the rest. Yet despite their courage few can operate independently against the insurgency. Their ability to take on other key missions, such as providing basic law and order, is unproven.

After more than a year of drift, the administration took a critical step in the right direction: It put Gen. David Petraeus in charge of the security training. He has added counterinsurgency to the police curriculum, emphasized leadership skills and building cohesive units, and developed special forces with much longer training times. As a result some Iraqis are starting to get the equipment, training and leadership skills they need to fight the insurgency. They include police commandos (about 5,000), special intervention forces (about 9,000), SWAT teams and other specialized forces (about 4,000). These forces total some 18,000 men.

But that is far short of the administration's 136,000 estimate. And of those 18,000, many are rookies with little experience. Indeed, in testimony Thursday before the Senate Armed Services Committee, senior administration officials couldn't say how many Iraqi forces can operate independently against the insurgency. That's why I believe the number of Iraqis prepared to take on the insurgency is somewhere between 4,000 and 18,000.

112,000 men by his rough count. I imagine he's generally correct - as General Petraeus said, "That just means they are trained for the element that they are a part of, and they have their individual equipment." Obviously the Iraqi forces don't have a smidgen of the average time in uniform that an established country's armed forces would have.

Like everything else there, the army is starting from scratch. Great to see that 100,000+ Iraqis have signed up to secure their country.

Great, the troops should be coming home now right?

 

[kage69]

I'm less concerned with the total number of Iraqis troops ready to fight for their country, and more concerned with their reliability. So tired of hearing about infiltration activities compromising the security of Iraqi and American troops.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Great, the troops should be coming home now right?

Suits me just fine, as long as they leave a stable Iraq behind them. I imagine as people have been saying all along, any estimate as to their return depends on the situation evaluated month to month.

As Iraqi forces improve, Army Lt. Gen. John Vines said, he suspects there will be ?fewer coalition and fewer Americans here in Iraq at the end of this year.?

Vines was quick to point out that any decision regarding force size will be driven by events on the ground. He said the way the Transitional National Assembly approaches the constitutional issue and works to include all Iraqis will also have a bearing on the number of troops. The National Assembly is scheduled to meet March 17.

Vines, who also commanded forces in Afghanistan, said the lesson he learned from that conflict and his time in Iraq is that, ?You can?t give freedom to someone; they have to take it. You can?t present it and hope it sticks; they have to seize it.?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: kage69
I'm less concerned with the total number of Iraqis troops ready to fight for their country, and more concerned with their reliability. So tired of hearing about infiltration activities compromising the security of Iraqi and American troops.

That's not going to change any time soon. The Iraqi resistance has infiltrated not only the security forces but the government itself.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The Iraqi Army was largely Sunni. The new Iraqi National Guard is almost all Shi'a. See the difference?

Not entirely true...the Republican Guard and its leadership, and Saddam's elite personal units, were entirely Sunni...the rank and file of the conscripted Army units, the ones that surrendered en masse during the first Gulf War and this time around, were predominantly Shi'ite.

That's not going to change any time soon. The Iraqi resistance has infiltrated not only the security forces but the government itself.

If they decide to engage the political process, are they not validating its potential for achieving results...I would much rather have these insurgents participate in the political process as a means to have their voices heard as opposed to blowing things up.

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
the greatest mistake we made was disbanding the Iraqi military machine after the end of the ground war.

The greatest mistake was going into Iraq in the first place and then re-electing the goon who took you there.

No army can do anything about the insurgency problem because it has so much popular support. Contrary to popular belief outside of Iraq, the insurgents are ordinary Iraqis, the ones you meet in the grocery stores and bump into the streets. These "insurgents", along with most Iraqis deem the U.S. presence illegal.

If the recent elections and therefore the new government fail to improve the lives of the Iraqis, more of them will join the ranks. You will then have even less recruits offering themselves to the police force or the army. So yes, it WILL be a "long, drawn-out process".

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

The Iraqi Army was largely Sunni. The new Iraqi National Guard is almost all Shi'a. See the difference?

Not entirely true...the Republican Guard and its leadership, and Saddam's elite personal units, were entirely Sunni...the rank and file of the conscripted Army units, the ones that surrendered en masse during the first Gulf War and this time around, were predominantly Shi'ite.

I stand corrected.

That's not going to change any time soon. The Iraqi resistance has infiltrated not only the security forces but the government itself.

If they decide to engage the political process, are they not validating its potential for achieving results...I would much rather have these insurgents participate in the political process as a means to have their voices heard as opposed to blowing things up.

I agree but hoping for something won't make it happen. The truth remains the Sunnis were shut out by the interim Iraqi gov't and the resistance they've created is a violent one and won't be changing any time soon.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
the greatest mistake we made was disbanding the Iraqi military machine after the end of the ground war.

The greatest mistake was going into Iraq in the first place and then re-electing the goon who took you there.

No army can do anything about the insurgency problem because it has so much popular support. Contrary to popular belief outside of Iraq, the insurgents are ordinary Iraqis, the ones you meet in the grocery stores and bump into the streets. These "insurgents", along with most Iraqis deem the U.S. presence illegal.


If the recent elections and therefore the new government fail to improve the lives of the Iraqis, more of them will join the ranks. You will then have even less recruits offering themselves to the police force or the army. So yes, it WILL be a "long, drawn-out process".

You need to read my post and the article I linked.

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
the greatest mistake we made was disbanding the Iraqi military machine after the end of the ground war.

The greatest mistake was going into Iraq in the first place and then re-electing the goon who took you there.

No army can do anything about the insurgency problem because it has so much popular support. Contrary to popular belief outside of Iraq, the insurgents are ordinary Iraqis, the ones you meet in the grocery stores and bump into the streets. These "insurgents", along with most Iraqis deem the U.S. presence illegal.

If the recent elections and therefore the new government fail to improve the lives of the Iraqis, more of them will join the ranks. You will then have even less recruits offering themselves to the police force or the army. So yes, it WILL be a "long, drawn-out process".

You are right about one thing Iraqis do want the US out of Iraq, but they do not support the insurgency. You think killing Iraqi police officers and civilians will bring you support, you're naive if you think this way.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: kage69
I'm less concerned with the total number of Iraqis troops ready to fight for their country, and more concerned with their reliability. So tired of hearing about infiltration activities compromising the security of Iraqi and American troops.

That's not going to change any time soon. The Iraqi resistance has infiltrated not only the security forces but the government itself.

You have proof of this or are you just talking out of your ass again?

 

[GreatBarracuda]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: GreatBarracuda

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
the greatest mistake we made was disbanding the Iraqi military machine after the end of the ground war.

The greatest mistake was going into Iraq in the first place and then re-electing the goon who took you there.

No army can do anything about the insurgency problem because it has so much popular support. Contrary to popular belief outside of Iraq, the insurgents are ordinary Iraqis, the ones you meet in the grocery stores and bump into the streets. These "insurgents", along with most Iraqis deem the U.S. presence illegal.


If the recent elections and therefore the new government fail to improve the lives of the Iraqis, more of them will join the ranks. You will then have even less recruits offering themselves to the police force or the army. So yes, it WILL be a "long, drawn-out process".

You need to read my post and the article I linked.

Let me clarify my position on this issue. I think there are many factions that make up the Iraqi resistance. One group, which is mostly comprised of sunnis is totally against the occupation. Their feelings were on display everytime the U.S. military machine marched into Fallujah for target-practice.

The other group is comprised of the remnants of the old regime, the Ba'athists. I think that these are the ones that go after the line-ups outside of the police recruitment centers and carry out bombings in regions of shia majorities. These are what I call "insurgents".

For the time being, the shia may seem to have laid down their arms and appear to be cooperating with the Americans, but don't forget how they rallied behind Muqtada Sadr against U.S. forces in what seemed like an imminent and calamitous clash. He calmed down after he was assured by Sistani that the elections would empower the shia and that his actions would only delay the polls.

I am very sceptical about the whole situation right now. If the election doesn't provide a sense of normalcy to the Iraqis and especially the shia, be sure to hear from Al-Sadr again ... and this time it might be different.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: kage69
I'm less concerned with the total number of Iraqis troops ready to fight for their country, and more concerned with their reliability. So tired of hearing about infiltration activities compromising the security of Iraqi and American troops.

That's not going to change any time soon. The Iraqi resistance has infiltrated not only the security forces but the government itself.

You have proof of this or are you just talking out of your ass again?

Veiled ad hominems coming from ntdz? Wow...how surprising.


http://www.countercurrents.org/iraq-ritter250704.htm

The transfer of sovereignty to the new Iraqi government of Iyad Allawi is a charade that will play itself out over the next weeks and months, and with tragic consequences. Allawi's government, hand-picked by the United States from the ranks of anti-Saddam expatriates, lacks not only a constituency inside Iraq but also legitimacy in the eyes of many ordinary Iraqi citizens.


The truth is that there never was a significant people- based opposition movement inside Iraq for the Bush administration to call on to form a government to replace Saddam. It is why the United States has instead been forced to rely on the services of individuals tainted by their association with foreign intelligence services, or drawn from opposition parties heavily infiltrated by agents of Saddam's former security services.

Also, from Hersh's speech here in Louisville a couple of weeks ago:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=52&threadid=1539955&enterthread=y

The Iraqi resistance has the government wired. They have people in various key areas of the government. Hersh made a point of emphasizing that.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: conjur
145,000 trained? Are those Rumsfeld's/DiRita's numbers? Remember Sen. Biden's comments that about 4000-5000 have been properly trained to handle combat duty? Of the 145,000 trained so far, some have received just initial training and many have fled or even gone so far as to join the other side. The training of Iraqis will be a long, drawn-out process.

Now remember, everyone, Conjur is ON SITE and is PERSONALLY supervising the whole of the effort in Iraq. He knows more about this than anyone else, so be sure you check with HIM before you believe any new reports out of Iraq. It is ESPECIALLY important to follow this last rule if there is any GOOD news out of Iraq: Conjur can assure you that there is in fact NO good news out of Iraq, and help set you back on the Path to Pessimism with his new book, all for only $29.95!

Jason