IRAQI SCIENTISTS: THE WEAPONS WERE DESTROYED WAY BEFORE THE WAR STARTED

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shuan24

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2003
2,558
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Yes I feel the same way too.

Although, that may be the case in Iraq, but I find it extremely hypocritical that the US *knows for sure* and North Korea even gloats about the fact that they have nuclear weapons, and we dont do anything about it. In fact, we bow down to them. Why not attack them? How about Syria? The answer is, since the the question is obviously rhetorical, that 1. we're scared of them, and 2. they have no resources in which we can steal. I find it sad that our great country has allowed our leadership to go astray. I personally feel that this war was an injustice done to the Iraqi people, and that the war was more about revenge than anything else.

(note: by 'scared', I mean that they'll actually fight back, and any estimate on American casualties would probably be an under-estimate.)
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
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Originally posted by: rudder
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Wow... you make an aweful lot of assumptions. First I am 18... second, I am not a Bush "lemming". I'm not even a Republican. I'm a conservative. Until I see a real conservative step up to bat againt Bush, he will get my vote. I don't agree with everything he does (such as his health care agenda), but compared to his Democratic counterparts, he is a god send.

A conservative at 18. *shakes head*

"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has not brains."

-Sir Winston Leonard Spenser Churchill


Who is more wrong here? Someone who is 18 and thinks he has a clear view of the world or someone who judges people based the life experiences of others?

Whose life experience is that? I was merely quoting one of the finest statesmen the world has ever seen (for better or worse). I think its fair to take someone's character into their argument, especially when they present it to you on a silver platter.

If you don't want your "image" scrutinized, as daniel says, don't offer it.
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
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Using that quote... nearly every liberal politician "has no brains." I don't think that is a very good quote to judge people by...
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Wow... you make an aweful lot of assumptions. First I am 18... second, I am not a Bush "lemming". I'm not even a Republican. I'm a conservative. Until I see a real conservative step up to bat againt Bush, he will get my vote. I don't agree with everything he does (such as his health care agenda), but compared to his Democratic counterparts, he is a god send.
In other words, you can't get past your single-issue litmus test. You're OK with Bush-lite lying and looting the treasury and destroying the environment and killing untold thousands of innocent men, women, and children ... as long as the Democratics disagree with you on that single issue. How sad.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
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It's all good. Everyone sees daniel for what he is. First he said the war was justified because the inspectors weren't given full access. When it was pointed out to him that he was confusing the 'full access' issue with the inspectors from years ago, he changed his tune and said that the war was justified because 1441 wasn't complied with. What's that tell you about daniel?
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Too bad this thread was trashed so quickly. It is a fascinating article. Here's an excerpt:
Chasing a Mirage
The U.S. was sure Saddam had WMD, but Iraqi scientists tell TIME the weapons were destroyed long before the war

The trader was actually sitting at home in Baghdad, waiting. He knew it was only a matter of time before the Americans came. It was just after curfew on the night of June 22, ten weeks after Saddam Hussein's fall, when he heard a helicopter overhead, the humvees in the street outside, the knock at the door. U.S. soldiers came rushing into the house, broke his bed, searched everywhere, then put a blindfold on him and drove him away.

He knew they would come because he knew what they were looking for. He had worked for the import section of Iraq's powerful Military Industrialization Commission (MIC), essentially the state's weapons-making organ, which owned hundreds of factories, research centers?everything you needed if you wanted to build an arsenal of chemical or biological weapons. He spent much of his time in the 1980s buying tons of growth medium, which scientists use to cultivate germs. "We were like traders." he says. "The scientists would tell us what they wanted, and we got it." After Gulf War I, he entertained a steady stream of U.N. weapons inspectors wanting to know what had happened to all that growth medium, how had it been used, what was left.

But there wasn't much he could tell them, not that he could prove, at least. Just before the war, he recalls, the chiefs at the mic had told people like him involved in the weapons program to hand over some of their documents and burn the rest. "They didn't realize at that time the Americans would insist on every single document," he says. "They thought the (U.S.) attacks would come and that would be it." When in the years after the war U.N. inspectors kept demanding a paper trail, the superiors got nervous. They "started asking us for the documents they had told us to destroy. They were desperate. They even offered to buy any documents we may have hidden."

Ten years and another war later, a new set of interrogators is wondering what happened to Iraq's bioweapons program. On the night of his arrest, the Americans took him to a detention center at the airport, where he was kept in a cell alone, given plenty of water and military rations. Two pairs of Western interrogators took turns asking questions, sometimes through a translator, sometimes directly in English or Arabic. "They asked me about the importation of things like chemicals and about people sent abroad for special missions. The essence of it was, Are there any wmd?" They particularly focused on the period after 1998, when U.N. inspectors left Iraq. "Could any trade have happened without my knowledge within the mic, not just my section?" The buyer says he had nothing of interest to tell the interrogators; his group, he insists, had long ago quit the weapons-of-mass-destruction business. As they pressed him about what he purchased and for whom, it seemed to him that "it was just like the blind man clutching for someone's hand to hold." After three days he was blindfolded, taken back into the city and released.

The trader's story offers a glimpse into the challenges faced by David Kay, a co-head of the Iraq Survey Group, charged by the cia with finding the wmd the Bush Administration insists Iraq has. Kay is expected to release a status report on his findings soon, possibly this week. While stressing that the account will not be the Survey Group's final word, cia spokesman Bill Harlow allows that it "won't rule anything in or out." That remark seems a tacit acknowledgment that the U.S., after nearly six months of searching, has yet to find definitive evidence that Saddam truly posed the kind of threat the White House described in selling the war.

Bush Administration officials never anticipated this predicament. They expected that wmd arsenals would be uncovered quickly once the U.S. occupied Iraq. Since then, Iraq has been scoured, and nearly every top weapons scientist has been captured or interviewed. That the investigators have found no hidden stockpiles of VX gas or anthrax or intact gas centrifuges suggests that it may be time to at least entertain the possibility that Iraqi officials all along were telling the truth when they said they no longer had a wmd program.

Over the past three months, TIME has interviewed Iraqi weapons scientists, middlemen and former government officials. Saddam's henchmen all make essentially the same claim: that Iraq's once massive unconventional-weapons program was destroyed or dismantled in the 1990s and never rebuilt; that officials destroyed or never kept the documents that would prove it; that the shell games Saddam played with U.N. inspectors were designed to conceal his progress on conventional weapons systems?missiles, air defenses, radar?not biological or chemical programs; and that even Saddam, a sucker for a new gadget or invention or toxin, may not have known what he actually had or, more to the point, didn't have. It would be an irony almost too much to bear to consider that he doomed his country to war because he was intent on protecting weapons systems that didn't exist in the first place.
[ ... ]
The article gets into more detail from here, lots of examples and anecdotes. Worth a read.
 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
1,456
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it does not matter, as soon as it is found the libs will simply cry "FAKE" and accuse bush of manufacturing the evidence, we all know this is exactly what will happen.

 

minibush1

Member
Sep 14, 2003
119
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Iraqi scientists fear arrest, assassination
Saddam's experts say weapons 'fully destroyed'

By LARRY KAPLOW
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution


BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Some Iraqi weapons scientists who surrendered to U.S. authorities or were arrested months ago remain in custody, out of contact with their loved ones.

One, after talking to the Americans, was gunned down by Iraqis in an apparent assassination.

And a former weapons scientist returning to Iraq via Amman, Jordan, in late May was detained in the Amman airport by Jordanian authorities. They delivered him to a five-star hotel where American investigators kept him for three months of what he said was friendly but frustrating questioning. They allowed him to move about the city and offered him money and jobs, but wouldn't return his passport until they were done with him, he said.

Now home in Baghdad, he waits in the limbo of the vanquished capital, occasionally summoned to meet polite U.S. investigators who want to verify new details.

"I asked them, 'Please tell me what you are considering us, criminals, terrorists, scientists or what?' " said the man, who admits producing nerve gas in the 1980s and agreed to be quoted only by his family nickname, Abu Humam.

U.S. search continues

David Kay, the chief of U.S. efforts to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, said last week that the search will go on for months more. Meanwhile, the former regime's weapons scientists in Baghdad wonder about their status as they continue to meet with secretive American inves- tigators.

In recent interviews, three weapons scientists said they are among a large number trying to lead normal lives in Baghdad and cooperating with U.S. investigators whenever requested. They spoke on the condition of anonymity, fearing retaliation from other Iraqis for cooperating with the authorities.

The fact that Kay's 1,400-staff Iraq Survey Group has not found any biological or chemical weapons caches does not surprise the scientists.

"All the capabilities of Iraq have been destroyed, fully destroyed," Abu Humam said Friday. Weapons production "is not simple work. This is heavy work. It takes equipment, reactors, people."

Another scientist, who worked on the country's missile program until it ended with the American invasion, said he believes Kay's supposition that Saddam Hussein wanted to keep Iraq's brain power on hand for a return someday to weapons production.

"We all expected to have to be ready for them any time," said the genteel, middle-aged army officer and chemist, who spoke on the condition that his name not be used. "If I had run away and they captured me, they would have executed me and maybe my family."

The scientists theorize that Kay's group has focused more on biological weapons scientists, based on several arrests they know about. In contrast, nearly all former chemical weapons scientists have been allowed to remain free, they said.

There were about 500 scientists known to the United Nations for their work on Saddam's weapons programs. The Iraqi scientists say that fewer than 10 are in U.S. custody, though they acknowledge that they know little about scientists outside their fields of expertise.

A prominent scientist in the VX nerve gas program was apparently detained and released. He now works for the Ministry of Oil and declined interview requests.

The missile scientist believes that the American investigators have softened their approach since the days after Baghdad fell in April and are now less likely to imprison scientists to try to win their cooperation.

Their word- of-mouth network hasn't carried news of any arrests in the three months since Kay's group replaced Army teams searching for weapons.

"There are people afraid to be arrested," he said. But "for now it has changed to the contrary. There is a very good cooperation. The people meeting with us now are treating us well."

Scientists reticent

The scientists aren't sure what they're allowed to say about their meetings with the Americans. But they seem to feel that they and their country cannot move on to rehabilitation until the world understands two points: They are cooperating and they have no weapons to hide.

Kay said Friday that one scientist who cooperated with his group was killed and another badly wounded in separate attacks.

The missile worker said he worries about a campaign by some Iraqis to threaten or kill scientists and professors -- not just weapons scientists -- in the city. He keeps a Kalashnikov rifle in his study.

Some still work at the National Monitoring Directorate, the Iraqi agency that used to be the liaison for the U.N. weapons inspectors, until they left before the war in March.

One of the former managers, Alaa al-Sayeed, 52, is now the director of the office under the newly formed Ministry of Science and Technology.

The point man in the Iraqi cat-and-mouse game with the U.N. inspectors was presidential adviser Amir al-Sa'adi. He was among the Americans' 55 most-wanted Iraqis. He turned himself in shortly after the regime fell in April and, according to al-Sayeed, is still detained.

Al-Sayeed said his office was visited several times by officials with the U.S.-led coalition in May and June, before Kay's group arrived. In early May, officials came for four scientists who were in the office and took them away. All four had worked on biological programs and none has been released.

"Even when they took the four scientists," al-Sayeed said, "they were polite."
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
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Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Wow... you make an aweful lot of assumptions. First I am 18... second, I am not a Bush "lemming". I'm not even a Republican. I'm a conservative. Until I see a real conservative step up to bat againt Bush, he will get my vote. I don't agree with everything he does (such as his health care agenda), but compared to his Democratic counterparts, he is a god send.
In other words, you can't get past your single-issue litmus test. You're OK with Bush-lite lying and looting the treasury and destroying the environment and killing untold thousands of innocent men, women, and children ... as long as the Democratics disagree with you on that single issue. How sad.

Wow... here's a surprise... someone completely ignoring the point of a post and wasting time on an issue that shouldn't need explaining.

Notice my word choice above "such as his health care agenda". I didn't write "aka his health care agenda" or "only his health care agenda". Nope the word I used is "such", which is clearly followed by "as". Which, as far as I know, means "for example" or implies the beginning of a larger list. The point isn't for me to list everything that I agree with Bush on and everything I agree with the other presidential candidates. The point is to show that I don't agree with Bush on many issues.

Under the same token, I don't agree with the Democrats on many issues. It just so turns out that I disagree with Democrats on more issues, both big and small, than I do Conservatives.

 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Originally posted by: Gaard
It's all good. Everyone sees daniel for what he is. First he said the war was justified because the inspectors weren't given full access. When it was pointed out to him that he was confusing the 'full access' issue with the inspectors from years ago, he changed his tune and said that the war was justified because 1441 wasn't complied with. What's that tell you about daniel?

Yep. That is the kind of person I am... human. I made a mistake. I, being the horrible person I am, mixed up the weapon inspection reports. I thought I did the right thing above by correcting my mis-information, but obvisouly that is not enough for you. Feel free to grill me, burn me at the stake, or do whatever it is you do.

In the words of Lloyd Christmas, "Excuse me, Mr. Perfect. I forgot you never make a mistake."
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Wow... you make an aweful lot of assumptions. First I am 18... second, I am not a Bush "lemming". I'm not even a Republican. I'm a conservative. Until I see a real conservative step up to bat againt Bush, he will get my vote. I don't agree with everything he does (such as his health care agenda), but compared to his Democratic counterparts, he is a god send.

Hey big ears. Listen good you will be a liberal by 27 and you will remember me saying this. You're way too smart to remain on the dark side. Or at least a true "compassionate conservative." If thier is such a thing. :)
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Wow... you make an aweful lot of assumptions. First I am 18... second, I am not a Bush "lemming". I'm not even a Republican. I'm a conservative. Until I see a real conservative step up to bat againt Bush, he will get my vote. I don't agree with everything he does (such as his health care agenda), but compared to his Democratic counterparts, he is a god send.

Hey big ears. Listen good you will be a liberal by 27 and you will remember me saying this. You're way too smart to remain on the dark side. Or at least a true "compassionate conservative." If thier is such a thing. :)

rolleye.gif
 

DZip

Senior member
Apr 11, 2000
375
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Yeah, raise someone in white-bread Colorado and feed 'em a steady diet of Hannity, Limbaugh and the bible and they'll follow Bush to the ends of the earth. 4 more wars! 4 more wars!

Do you really believe the Hannity and Limbaugh have the same power as the word of God?