Iraqi Opinions

[magomago]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6987305.stm
Talk about a treasure trove of information.

The BBC World Service has been talking to Baghdad residents, gathering their views of the US military surge in their city.

The US deployed an extra 30,000 troops in Iraq this year, bringing their number up to nearly 170,000.

But a survey by the BBC suggests that about 70% of Iraqis believe security has deteriorated in the area covered by the surge.

Six residents told BBC World Service's The World Today programme their own personal view of the impact of the surge.

Click on the links below to read what they have to say.

Thank you BBC for providing information from the actual mouths of Iraqis. Of course....the fact that most believe the surge hasn't done a great job really suxXx

"We would like to go back to Saddam's time"
Mohammed Karim Hassan, Shia Muslim English teacher

"The American plan is good, but Iraqi commanders are like dogs"
Abdul, Sunni Muslim engineer

"The number of Christians in Iraq is decreasing because of death threats and kidnappings"
Kurkies Ishou, Christian party Bait Al-Tahrain



"I feel comfortable with the security forces in the streets"
Ahmed Tadhom al-Shiva, lecturer at Baghdad University

"It is complete chaos, especially in the centre of the city"
Rasoul Iramish, bus driver

"Without the US forces' support, the Iraqi forces would be smashed completely"
Hussein Kadhom Al-Shimiri, Iraqi police officer

OUCH to every single quote.

Mohammed Karim Hassan is a Shia Muslim English teacher who lives with his family in the Amin district.

.

We often joke that we are geniuses in war, because we have lived with war with Iran [sometimes referred to as the first Gulf War], the Gulf War [in response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait], and this, the third one.

From the bombs, what can I say? We are scared.

When the American troops first came to Baghdad, we thought - and we saw, actually - that democracy was coming, that freedom was coming, that the dictator's time was gone.

But the problem is, day by day, we have seen a different thing. So now we say we would like to go back to Saddam's time.

I'm a Shia and this is my opinion. Maybe some people have a different opinion, but the majority of people where I live, say the same thing.

No electricity, no power, no security - where is the freedom the Americans talk about? What freedom?

Where is the democracy?

We look for safety, for security, the same things.

My children, when they leave to study, they study under an oil lamp because there's no electricity.

We would like to live the same way as other people in the world, nothing more.

For all those who keep pushing a primitive analysis of Shia vs Sunni - of how Shias hated Saddam while Sunnis thrive...it must suck to hear a "shia" say, and I quote:

So now we would like to go back to Saddam's time.

Of course we have no idea about the area from which he hails so we can, or even if there are many people that live near him in order to fully understand his comments...but considering how we portrayed Saddam as the greatest threat since Hitler, isn't it absolutely pathetic when people wish he was back in power?

Abdul is a Sunni Muslim engineer who lives in the north of Baghdad.

Believe me, life in Baghdad is very hard.

I live in the north of the city, where there is no electricity or water.

There are also no services - it's not just me who says that, but most people in Baghdad say the same.

Sometimes our Prime Minister Nouri Maliki comes across like a citizen of Iran. He puts Iran to the front, rather than Iraq.

The American plan is good. But inside the American plans, Iraqi commanders are like dogs.

They are wicked dogs. These commanders destroyed every good thing. Therefore, we want to get rid of Al-Maliki.

I want the Americans to rule Iraq. They are better than Al-Maliki and his commanders and his followers, believe me.

So the party we allowed to come to power - the one directly supported by Iran, *sarcasm*SUPRISINGLY*end* puts Iran's interests ahead of Iraq. Is this supposed to be news? When we allow a government to be packed by other people's (as well as our own! Can anyone tell me exactly why Chalabi was even REMOTELY justified to be the oil minister?) cronies...what do we expect as the end result?

We hit a few muslims' opinions - let us look at the Christian perspective

Kurkies Ishou is a member of a Christian party called Bait Al-Tahrain who lives in New Baghdad.

I have been living in New Baghdad for almost 26 years.

It's a mixed area - there are Christians, Muslims and other sects.

This isn't anything new - for many years we lived in peace together until things changed all over Iraq.

Now, because we are Christians, we suffer a lot.

In fact, the number of Christians in Iraq is decreasing because of death threats and kidnappings. Many have been killed.

It means we have no freedom to move around.

It's especially difficult for women - they are prisoners in their own homes. This forced me to send my wife and four daughters to Syria.

Situations vary from neighbourhood to neighbourhood. In some areas we can't practise our religion in a normal way, while in other places we can go to Church but there is no safety guarantee.

This is because the surge hasn't been active all over Baghdad. In some areas there is presence but in others, where it's really dangerous, there is nothing.

There were a lot of bombs around New Baghdad and a lot of people have been killed. Officials decided to enclave New Baghdad market with concrete walls to stop the flow of car bombs.

It's a good short-term solution but it can't last forever. The walls feel like a cage or prison.

Baghdad is very dear to us. I have spent all my life here and I have absolutely no thought to ever leave.

Its funny how all the pundits out there talk about this religious split in Iraq that goes down into the grain of society, and how that should be followed up with a split of the country because the people "Simply can't get along"...
...yet all the Iraqis consistently say otherwise. Notice how he said they lived in peace for many years with each other. For those who claim "Saddam kept things in order" --> how come we've never read any Iraqi talk about a lot of this! This is a point I hammer HARD and I've never come across an article where Iraqis who have lived in the Middle East claim the only reason they got along with that Muslim (be it "sunni" or "shia") or Christian or whatever you have was because SADDAM FORCED THEM TO.

Of course we can see that for the Christians, their life sucks just as much. They can't practice their religion or visit their church without fear of bombs (which have hit both Muslim and Christian communities HARD), their women can only stay inside (BOTH Muslim and Christian have this problem), their movement is limited and the "walls of protection" is more like a CAGE (now they get a taste of what it is to be a Palestinian!)....

Ahmed Tadhom al-Shiva is a lecturer at Baghdad University who specialises in satellite technology.

When I leave my house for university every morning - around 5 or 6am - my life is in God's hands.

Lectures begin at 8.30 and generally we finish our work by 12 or 1pm.

It's better to finish early, as getting home is always more difficult than coming in, due to security problems that occur during the day.

Often we find roads we want to use are closed. The police and army are deployed everywhere - sometimes forcing you to take other routes, which you then find are also closed.

Instead of taking an hour and ten minutes to get home, it takes two and a half hours. Occasionally, even six hours.

But I feel comfortable with the security forces in the streets.

Since the surge started in February, traffic in Baghdad has become really bad because the security forces are so committed - they search each car and every person.

Before that, traffic was heavy but the security wasn't good.

A lot of my colleagues at Baghdad University have received death threats or have been advised to move away for their own security. Many have gone to other provinces with their families. I haven't received a death threat but I don't want to leave.

If Baghdad is deserted by its professors, there will be no future for Iraq. We need to remain steadfast and optimistic to the end.

First of all - this man has more balls than 95% of you have when he disregards a death threat...in a place where MANY have been kidnapped and killed. How does that feel knowing there is a mark on you , and knowing that others with marks have met a horrible fate? I'm sure that you (even myself as well) would have fleed.

He actually likes the poor traffic - he'd rather wait a reallly really long time but make sure that ever car is searched than wait a reallly long time and have poor security and watch cars blow up like fireworks. Either way he shows that aspects of this surge work...

27-year-old Rasoul Jabar Iramish is a bus driver, travelling to many of the worst-affected parts of the city

I have been working as a bus driver for eight years.

I started as a taxi driver, then bought my minibus and began to work on the Shula to Bab Alsharji route, or to Kadhimiyia, and sometimes to Alawi.

The main problems I encounter with my work are risks on the road and the high price of fuel.

It is an okay form of employment. You can earn enough money to get by on a day-to-day basis, but you can't save any money. If the bus breaks down, you get nothing.

I leave my house at 6am and get back home at 1pm. I take a break and then get out again at 2.30pm, and return at 8pm.

I know that if the number of passengers is low, it is related to the security situation.

As bus drivers we cannot just sit at home, because this is the only source of income for us.

If there are explosions, like in Allawi and Bab Alsharji, there are fewer passengers. But if the situation is good for, say, four days, people begin to go downtown again.

This is what is happening all the time and this is how we live.

I go to work even if there are explosions - I just wait until the road reopens.

If there is shooting, we park somewhere until it stops and then continue on our way. It is always like that.

One time, I had passengers with me and a gang attacked us. They tried to kidnap us but I was able to escape.

The traffic is very bad in Baghdad. The odd and even system is not being applied in the right way [cars are allowed on the roads only on alternate days, depending on whether their license plates end in odd or even numbers, to cut down on traffic]. Traffic police can do nothing about that because of the unstable situation.

It is complete chaos, especially in the centre of the city.

The fuel crisis is very bad too.

I always buy fuel from the black market - I cannot stand in a queue for gas, this might take two days.

Sometimes 20 litres of gas can cost 20,000 Iraqi dinar (approximately $16), or as much as 25,000 ID.

But from the petrol station, one litre costs 600 ID (50 cents).

For the fees, if it is from Shula to Bab Alsharji, I charge 1,000 ID (80 cents). The same for Al-Awai. I take 250 ID if I go to Kadhimiyia.

If the passenger takes a taxi, he will be charged 15,000 ID (US$1.20), so it is better to take a bus.

Six months ago the fee was 500 ID because fuel was cheap. We used to buy gas from the black market with 12-13,000 ID, whereas from the petrol station it was 10,000 ID.

There is no security, but we have families and we have to go out and earn a living.

Wonderful to know that waiting at a gas station can take up to two days. Out of curiosity how many of you have that patience?

Hussein Kadhom Al-Shimiri is an Iraqi police officer in Baghdad.

I have been working as a policeman for 20 years.

During the previous regime there was order between the policeman and his officers. But now the police has been violated by the militias. Political parties are also involved.

The surge began in the wrong way. The media announced beforehand that security forces would raid certain areas and arrest criminals. This was like sending messages to the leaders of death squads to be careful.

It was like an advertisement, saying that the surge was going to be tough. That's why most of them left Iraq.

Most of them headed to Iran. Others went to the southern provinces where security is not good. And others went to Syria.

The US forces were not deployed completely in the streets like the Iraqi forces. They were used to back up Iraqi forces if they came under fire or got caught in neighbourhoods where there are dens of terrorists.

In general, without the US forces support, the Iraqi forces would be smashed completely.

The US forces in the street are useful, because the majority of the Iraqi forces are made up of sectarian parties. So most of the time, sectarian impulses dominate the raids, and determine who gets arrested.

I prefer the deployment of US forces in Iraqi streets because they implement the law.

For example, if a motorcade for an Iraqi official wants to go to a specific neighbourhood, the Iraqi forces let them in immediately. But the American forces would still check the cars before allowing them in.

Great opinion.

First point - In the Saddam era there was ORDER. Period.

But now he mentioned that politicians are involved in the actions of the police. Imagine if this was true here, if in some areas "republican" officers attempted to arrest or conduct unsavory actions on "Democratic areas" and vice versa. We think of that an un imaginable and ridiculous...but that is the case.

Of course we should look to where the "Death squad leaders" went. I don't' fault Syria for accepting or not accepting them - they are allowing in Iraqis without visas and its just impossible to keep track of everyone, providing they say who they are. I don't know about Iran though, but I have a HARD time believing that Iran is just allowing anyone to cross over the border and not watching it like a hawk. thus I'll reserve my comment until I can figure out about how the border situation works in Iraq. Palehorse or TallBill - being soldiers there do you guys have any information?
Oh and the sad part about this - if we secured the fvcking borders they wouldn't have been able to get across.


What is the overall message and what can be taken?

1) The surge works...kinda...maybe. It works selectively . some places its not bad, others it just is ineffective
2) There is belief at the grass roots level for the American TROOPS - and a belief that the troops are, in general, trying to do good. This in NO WAY indicates that belief and support at the troop level is any way indicative of support at the civilian government and Administration level of our president, and their prime minister
3) Repeatedly there is a distaste towards the government, who feels that it is ineffective, and is essentially a puppet of Iran that allows all forms of corruption to go unchecked.
4) Everyone is getting reamed - both Muslims and Christians - who have lived together without a problem for a LONG TIME. All this friction and problem is RECENT and related to....the GOVERNMENT! The fact that people wish Saddam was back does not look good to us at all.


No one doubts that the average troop on the ground is trying to do good. That is their job, they want to be successful. None of us wants to fail at our job and have people tell us that we did a bad job. But this is NOT possible when you have an Administration that is purposely trying to create problems, purposely ignoring problems that need to be addressed, allowing many WRONG processes to take place. Even if you are the hardest worker - if management is running the company into the ground, its almost impossible to prevent it...especially if that management is PURPOSELY fvcking the company.
All the troops there like Tall billl, and mercs like Palehorse (that is the impression I get) I know you guys are actually hoping the situation gets better, and you guys WANT it to get better...but don't delude yourself about this Administration. I know there is a lot of good will from the Iraq people down at your level...but our commander in chief is full of sh*t and his cronies have an agenda of their own

and even after all this...with such a poor leadership the best scenario is to get OUT of Iraq...because that is the only way that poor management can be stopped.

edit:
-some grammar issues adderssed, not all
-formatting fixed :x

 

[blackangst1]

First point - In the Saddam era there was ORDER. Period

Well, there is "order" in North Korea also. Guess that would be a shining example for the world!

You realize Iraq is primarily responsible for security in it's own country right?

 

[umbrella39]

Excellent post and commentary mago. :thumbsup:

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

First point - In the Saddam era there was ORDER. Period

Well, there is "order" in North Korea also. Guess that would be a shining example for the world!

You realize Iraq is primarily responsible for security in it's own country right?

Not since we started swinging our balls around....

EDIT: OP I think what you have said in the opening post will not be reflected by General Petraeus when he speaks today. Why? Media spin for support of GWB and his illegal occupation. Simple.

 

[1EZduzit]

Battling for Iraq By David H. Petraeus September 26, 2004

BAGHDAD -- Helping organize, train and equip nearly a quarter-million of Iraq's security forces is a daunting task. Doing so in the middle of a tough insurgency increases the challenge enormously, making the mission akin to repairing an aircraft while in flight -- and while being shot at. Now, however, 18 months after entering Iraq, I see tangible progress. Iraqi security elements are being rebuilt from the ground up.

The institutions that oversee them are being reestablished from the top down. And Iraqi leaders are stepping forward, leading their country and their security forces courageously in the face of an enemy that has shown a willingness to do anything to disrupt the establishment of the new Iraq.
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Today approximately 164,000 Iraqi police and soldiers (of which about 100,000 are trained and equipped) and an additional 74,000 facility protection forces are performing a wide variety of security missions. Equipment is being delivered. Training is on track and increasing in capacity. Infrastructure is being repaired. Command and control structures and institutions are being reestablished.

A Report Card on Iraqi Troops May 18, 2005

Previously, the U.S. military had measured progress by simply reporting how many members of the Iraqi military and police had been "trained and equipped" -- a figure that topped 165,000 last week -- and how many military and special police battalions had become "operational" -- currently 101. With the new approach, statistics are available on the quality of the force.

The leaders of each Iraqi army battalion, brigade and division -- and their foreign advisers -- rate their units in six categories, including manning and equipment levels, training, command and control, leadership and logistics. They also provide predictions on when their units would be ready to operate independently of U.S. and other international forces.

The survey, called the Transition Readiness Assessment, has been run twice, on April 15 and May 1, and is designed to become a monthly event. Many of the results remain classified. But in interviews, several officers reported some trends.

The survey showed that the best Iraqi units are those that have received the most assistance from U.S. forces, with units in Baghdad and north-central Iraq the strongest.

"There is a direct correlation between how much effort coalition units have put into their Iraqi security forces and how effective those forces are," said Col. Chris King, a senior planner at the Multinational Security Transition Command-Iraq, which oversees the development of Iraqi security forces.

Logistics scored poorly in many Iraqi units, which were found to have "significant difficulty" anticipating requirements. Their ability to account for supplies and equipment remains a critical concern, the assessment said in a section titled "general trends."

U.S. officers said the gap in logistics reflects the rush over the past year to create basic infantry units and push them into counterinsurgency operations with U.S. forces. The units have lacked such critical support personnel as truck drivers, engineers, medics and supply clerks. Those services have been performed largely by U.S. troops or private contractors.

Of 75,800 Iraqi army troops listed as trained and equipped, only about 4,000 are identified as performing support functions, according to U.S. figures. By contrast, in the U.S. Army, the proportion of combat forces to support elements -- known in military jargon as the "tooth-to-tail" ratio -- is closer to 50/50.

Building up the Iraqi military's tail is a U.S. priority this year.

"We know we can help the Iraqis train and equip combat battalions and brigades, and they are very much in the fight," said Army Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus, who is in charge of the development effort. "We now have to give more emphasis to helping them sustain those forces by assisting them to develop their logistical units."

Petraeus wants to delay exit decision September 11, 2007

WASHINGTON: The top US commander in Iraq, General David Petraeus, has recommended that decisions on reducing the main body of American troops in Iraq be put off for six months, officials said yesterday.


Reports yesterday said General Petraeus, whose hotly anticipated testimony before Congress was to begin overnight, had informed President George W. Bush initial troop cuts could begin in mid-December, with the withdrawal of one of the 20 US combat brigades in Iraq, about 4000 troops.
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But General Petraeus has said it was too soon to present recommendations on reducing US forces below 130,000 because the situation in Iraq was in flux.

He suggested he wait until March to outline proposals on that question, the report said.
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In a letter to his troops at the weekend, General Petraeus wrote that American forces had achieved "tactical momentum", and stressed US troops were forging successful alliances with local Sunni tribal leaders.

The letter cited "uneven" but quantifiable progress on security while acknowledging political progress "has not worked out as we had hoped". He added: "We are, in short, a long way from the goal line, but we do have the ball and we are driving down the field."

?Meet the Press? transcript for May 20, 2007

SEN. DODD: And they?re asking us to do it for them.

MR. RUSSERT: Another, I think, concern Americans have is that four years into the war, there are only 6,000 Iraqi troops...

MR. GINGRICH: Ready to right.

MR. RUSSERT: ...who are fully trained...

MR. GINGRICH: Yeah.

MR. RUSSERT: ...independent outside of American support. And people question why is that? Why are the Iraqis apparently unwilling to step up and shed blood...

There is no reason that the Iraqis shouldn have a trained army and police force capable of defending it's goverment by now. NONE, and Patreus truly is betraying us until he address why, after all he was in charge of training the from the ground up for 15 months.

US military chief in Iraq verdict September 10, 2007 ">http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukla...ry/0,,-6909683,00.html</a>

A second study by retired US Marine general James Jones warned that American-trained Iraqi forces will not be ready to take on combat duties alone for 12 to 18 months.

They had a study a year ago that came to the same conclusios of 12 to 18 months? That's no progress whatsoever then??

But the deaths and expenses just keep adding up.

Iraq War Results & Statistics as of Sept 5, 2007

 

[Mxylplyx]

In some areas of the world, order is the best we can hope for right now. Anybody that can keep a lid on the nutjobs over in the ME is good enough in my book. Anyone remember playing the original civilization back in the day? You had to have your shit together in your territories before you switched over to democracy?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
In some areas of the world, order is the best we can hope for right now. Anybody that can keep a lid on the nutjobs over in the ME is good enough in my book. Anyone remember playing the original civilization back in the day? You had to have your shit together in your territories before you switched over to democracy?

Can you say Saddam?

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
In some areas of the world, order is the best we can hope for right now. Anybody that can keep a lid on the nutjobs over in the ME is good enough in my book. Anyone remember playing the original civilization back in the day? You had to have your shit together in your territories before you switched over to democracy?

Can you say Saddam?

Thats pretty much what I was saying. A mostly secular ruler that just needed to be bitch slapped every once in a while. I'd say we had it pretty good with him.

 

[trenchfoot]

There is no reason that the Iraqis shouldn have a trained army and police force capable of defending it's goverment by now.

i'm guessing there would be, but because we're trying to force the iraqi's to comingle in a way that is culturally and practically undesirable to them they have no motivation or desire to do so.

imho, the iraqi's want to resolve their problems the way that they are used to. they don't want to be forced into taking steps that are contrary to their beliefs and customs. there are scores to settle and other business that need to be taken care of but are being impeded by our western-minded interference and neocon agenda.

bush's invasion plans tossed aside as insignificant the problems that the sunni-shiite-kurd amalgamation presented. the bush team also tossed aside alot of other "problems" that got in their way of using 9/11 as an opportunity to invade iraq.

well, guess what came back around to bite him the a$$.

bush and his buddies are directly and wholly responsible for the mess he and his neocon henchmen are in. to side-step that fact, he blames others for his failures.

that is a true indication of the worth of that man. he found it so easy to get himself into that hopeless mess, yet he's finding it impossible to get himself out of it. what i hope he's learned is that it's easy to lie your way into a mess, but practically impossible to lie your way out of it.

on top of that, it looks like he's decided that the only way to get out of the mess he got himself into is to stall, delay and deflect until he can just run away from it when his term expires.

yet we are continually asked to blindly trust him to fix the mess he's made? hah!

 

[StageLeft]

How can this be? I thought that the Bush Administration knew what was best for Iraq--more so than Iraqis. Their opinions are therefore null and void.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

First point - In the Saddam era there was ORDER. Period

Well, there is "order" in North Korea also. Guess that would be a shining example for the world!

You realize Iraq is primarily responsible for security in it's own country right?

I never said that order implied political freedom. In that case, yes - North Koreans do have order. But I find a comparison between the two limited in nature. I'm going to venture that even though Iraq has been in a constant state of War since the 80s, and has gone through 14 years of sanction, life there is still better than it was in North Korea. Right now? Well I'm not so sure- mainly because I'm having trouble finding information on North Korea (then again considering how secretive North Korea is any kind of information is difficult to find). I really hesitate to say conclusively where life sucks more.

But from anecdotal evidence of my parents and their friends and relatives I see a very common theme repeat from the generation whose lives were radically changed by the influence of Saddam: and that is one where people from very poor backgrounds, of all ethnicities and religions became Doctors, Engineers, Scientists, and Professors (finally replacing the European, American, and Indian professors who were imported to teach) and watch their overall standard of living dramatically rise. Of course this is totally through what we hear on the news, and second hand information from others who have spent time in Iraq... I wouldn't venture to say that Saddam may have actually given two shits about the population and wanted the country to grow and be more powerful, but ruled with an iron fist. China anyone? Of course don't think I'm lacing Saddam's image of with flowers - as the the same relative who gained a Masters in Agriculture Science also lost some fingers due to anti Saddam political opinions.

Even without political freedom - how has the standard of living progressed in North Korea over the past 35 years?

If anything - Iraq would have been a good "target" to push for slow democratization.

Of course at the same time if we invaded North Korea and then pulled the same crap we did here in Iraq with the intent of fvcking up North Korea...I would be opposed to that, and I'm sure the South Korean population wouldn't stand for it.



1EZduzit - nice post....shows how incompetent our leadership is.

It has to either be sheer incompetence...
but then again we have complete idiots running around government? While I feel it holds true in many cases, the absolute level of idiocy is astounding...which is why I feel it is something deeper than that ~ that the administration and its cronies KNOW what it is doing and is doing it very carefully.

Mxylplyx

Saddam wasn't ideal - but Saddam wouldn't have been around forever...and no one liked Uday or Qusay. Even Saddam loyalists who viewed him as the Hammarabi of Mesopatamaia PT2 thought little of his "sons"

skoorb - I don't see what point you are trying to say unless you are being sarcastic...