Iraqi Constitution Delayed As Shiites Refuse to Sign Up

[tnitsuj]

from the New York Times

Looks like Al Sistani declined to approve it.

 

[JackStorm]

Sigh...it really must be hard for Iraqi's to agree on things. Can't say I'm surpriced though.

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: JackStorm
Sigh...it really must be hard for Iraqi's to agree on things. Can't say I'm surpriced though.

Not that hard when you realize that Iraq like many countries is an artificial construct drawn up by a Western Power (Britian). The entire concept of a unified Iraq is unnatural. The only thing holding it together was a brutal dictator, I fully expect them to turn on each other as different groups vie for power/independence.

It is a striking parallel to what happened to Yugoslavia after Tito died. Old scores will be settled one way or ther other, ethnic cleansing, civil war...We have a big task to try and prevent that.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: JackStorm
Sigh...it really must be hard for Iraqi's to agree on things. Can't say I'm surpriced though.

Not that hard when you realize that Iraq like many countries is an artificial construct drawn up by a Western Power (Britian). The entire concept of a unified Iraq is unnatural. The only thing holding it together was a brutal dictator, I fully expect them to turn on each other as different groups vie for power/independence.

It is a striking parallel to what happened to Yugoslavia after Tito died. Old scores will be settled one way or ther other, ethnic cleansing, civil war...We have a big task to try and prevent that.

We've stepped in this mess, now we'll have to clean it up.

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: JackStorm
Sigh...it really must be hard for Iraqi's to agree on things. Can't say I'm surpriced though.

Not that hard when you realize that Iraq like many countries is an artificial construct drawn up by a Western Power (Britian). The entire concept of a unified Iraq is unnatural. The only thing holding it together was a brutal dictator, I fully expect them to turn on each other as different groups vie for power/independence.

It is a striking parallel to what happened to Yugoslavia after Tito died. Old scores will be settled one way or ther other, ethnic cleansing, civil war...We have a big task to try and prevent that.

Yeah, I know. Britain had a nice little adventure in the M-E before the sovjets and the US started having their little adventures there. Personally, I've often pondered if they wouldn't just be better off if Iraq were split in three. But, I'm sure someone would find something to bitch about. People in general always do. Beside, the three way split wont happen. Bush already gave his word that there would be no split.

I dunno, as strange as this might sound to some (Though I'm sure you'll understand what I'm saying) Civil war or a split seems natural in Iraqs case. Without Hussein, I don't think anyone can truly hold Iraq together. He was an asshole, but an asshole who knew how to hold a country together (In his case, through fear).

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: JackStorm
Sigh...it really must be hard for Iraqi's to agree on things. Can't say I'm surpriced though.

Not that hard when you realize that Iraq like many countries is an artificial construct drawn up by a Western Power (Britian). The entire concept of a unified Iraq is unnatural. The only thing holding it together was a brutal dictator, I fully expect them to turn on each other as different groups vie for power/independence.

It is a striking parallel to what happened to Yugoslavia after Tito died. Old scores will be settled one way or ther other, ethnic cleansing, civil war...We have a big task to try and prevent that.

We've stepped in this mess, now we'll have to clean it up.

No argument there.

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: Orsorum
We've stepped in this mess, now we'll have to clean it up.

Aye, and what we broke, we should fix.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: JackStorm

Originally posted by: tnitsuj

Originally posted by: JackStorm
Sigh...it really must be hard for Iraqi's to agree on things. Can't say I'm surpriced though.

Not that hard when you realize that Iraq like many countries is an artificial construct drawn up by a Western Power (Britian). The entire concept of a unified Iraq is unnatural. The only thing holding it together was a brutal dictator, I fully expect them to turn on each other as different groups vie for power/independence.

It is a striking parallel to what happened to Yugoslavia after Tito died. Old scores will be settled one way or ther other, ethnic cleansing, civil war...We have a big task to try and prevent that.

Yeah, I know. Britain had a nice little adventure in the M-E before the sovjets and the US started having their little adventures there. Personally, I've often pondered if they wouldn't just be better off if Iraq were split in three. But, I'm sure someone would find something to bitch about. People in general always do. Beside, the three way split wont happen. Bush already gave his word that there would be no split.

I dunno, as strange as this might sound to some (Though I'm sure you'll understand what I'm saying) Civil war or a split seems natural in Iraqs case. Without Hussein, I don't think anyone can truly hold Iraq together. He was an asshole, but an asshole who knew how to hold a country together (In his case, through fear).

The Kurds in the North would be more than happy to establish their own country (Kurdistan) but the Turks and the Iranians will have none of it.

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

The Kurds in the North would be more than happy to establish their own country (Kurdistan) but the Turks and the Iranians will have none of it.

Indeed.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

The Kurds in the North would be more than happy to establish their own country (Kurdistan) but the Turks and the Iranians will have none of it.

They pretty much had their own autonomous state within Iraq for the past 10 years or so didn't they?

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: lozina
They pretty much had their own autonomous state within Iraq for the past 10 years or so didn't they?

Pretty much, yeah.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

The Kurds in the North would be more than happy to establish their own country (Kurdistan) but the Turks and the Iranians will have none of it.

They pretty much had their own autonomous state within Iraq for the past 10 years or so didn't they?

Iraq had already gassed and butchered their quota of Kurds the previous decade

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

The Kurds in the North would be more than happy to establish their own country (Kurdistan) but the Turks and the Iranians will have none of it.

They pretty much had their own autonomous state within Iraq for the past 10 years or so didn't they?

Iraq had already gassed and butchered their quota of Kurds the previous decade

And the no fly zones nuetered Hussiens forces in the north effectively!

 

[Witling]

Bump, to get the threads in the right order. I overposted this thread.

 

[magomago]

After reading the article on Yahoo I would have to disagree with the Kurdish position. They want to control their own region and be as far apart from Baghdad as possible. Almost likes a "state's rights" to the extreme. But considering the position Iraq is in, there should be a strong federal government in order to keep the country together. If the Kurds are worried of losing their autonomy that they've had- tought luck, its called "joining a democracy" and that will involve a loss of power if other parties are also going to be part of it.

 

[GoPackGo]

Look how long it took the US to go from Declaration of Independence to Constitution...15 years.

I think we can cut the Iraqis a little slack

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Look how long it took the US to go from Declaration of Independence to Constitution...15 years.

I think we can cut the Iraqis a little slack

Agreed, Democracy takes time. Its a lot slower than a dictatorship. Although a good idea to speed things up a tad would be to have Al Sistani sit on the council. If the shiite members have to go back to him for the final say, why don't you just include him in the discussion so you don't have all this back and forth.

 

[zephyrprime]

Personally, I've often pondered if they wouldn't just be better off if Iraq were split in three. But, I'm sure someone would find something to bitch about.

IT would be problematic because the locations of the borders would be contested after they were drawn up by us. Perhaps very violently by the 3 ethnic groups. Also, the location of the borders would be tough to draw up in the first place bacause the 3 ethnic groups aren't cleanly separated geographically. (There are sunni and shiite parts of Baghdad). Leaving it in one piece is also very problematic. The more I think about it, the less I like the whole situation.

 

[chess9]

The U.S. will never be able to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again.

Rather, we will have to stay there for 50-100 years as a policeman, or exit and leave them to their own discord. Don't expect any kind of Western democracy in Iraq any time soon.

-Robert