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Iraqi Civilian Death Toll

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
have a bad feeling Saddam's men will wind up killing more of their own innocent civilians than we will, besides if they are training children as young as 6 to fight, using pregnant woman for terrorist attacks, and letting military personnel dress in civilian clothing, who are the "innocent civilinas"?

either way, even if coalition forces have killed 750 "civilians", it is still far less than those that died during sdanctions due to Saddams non compliance, or directly at his hands or orders in the past 2 decades....

The safety and freedom of 27,000,000 is always going to outweight the liberty of a few.
 

tec699

Banned
Dec 19, 2002
6,440
0
0
Who cares..

The Iraqi people have been dying for decades by Hussein's men. Where were the peace protestors when Iraqi women were being dragged out into the street and were beheaded or had their their tounges ripped out of their mouths? Where were the peace protestors when Hussein's men were dragging out young Iraqi men and shooting them in the head because they opposed Saddam? I'll tell you where they were... NOWHERE!! They don't give a rats a** about the Iraqi people.

The Iraqi people will rebound from the bombing. They are strong people.

 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
2
0
And that site doesn't break out Iraqi civilians killed by their own troops or Iraqi AA fire/bombs (like the Sha'ab market and the other market).

And how many civilians killed when they refused to join the paramilitary forces?
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
or surrendered to Iraq military dressed in Us and UK uniforms, does that total include the pregnant woman and her unborn child that were forced to get into a vehicle wired with explosives and drive to a checkpoint to be blown up?
 

Jmman

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 1999
5,307
0
76
I keep seeing these posts about X number of civilian casualties in this conflict. A couple of points. First, how do you fight a war without civilian casualties? Can't be done. Secondly, let's look at a couple of prior conflicts and the corresponding civilian casualties.........WW2...around 20 million, Vietnam.....around 3 million......this conflict.....750? You get the idea.......;)
 

iamWolverine

Senior member
May 20, 2001
763
0
76
Originally posted by: conjur
And that site doesn't break out Iraqi civilians killed by their own troops or Iraqi AA fire/bombs (like the Sha'ab market and the other market).

And how many civilians killed when they refused to join the paramilitary forces?
Most of those market explosions have been confirmed as coming from American / UK weapons not Iraqi.

How do deaths at the hand of the Iraqi regime justify civilian deaths at the hands of "allied" forces?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
2
0
Originally posted by: iamWolverine

Most of those market explosions have been confirmed as coming from American / UK weapons not Iraqi.

How do deaths at the hand of the Iraqi regime justify civilian deaths at the hands of "allied" forces?
Links, please.

The reports I've read and heard in various places state the craters were way too small to have come from cruise missiles or JDAMs.

link

And:

Article stating crater was 1 meter deep
Al Nasr market (Crater size of a coffee table...not very big)

And:

Article on JDAM:
As the Mark-84 JDAM strikes the ground, its fuse ignites a priming charge that detonates 945 pounds of Tritonal, a silvery solid of TNT mixed with a dollop of aluminum for stability.

The ensuing chemical reaction produces an expanding nucleus of hot gas that swells the Mark-84's 14-inch-wide cast steel casing to almost twice its size before the steel shears and fractures, showering a thousand pounds of white-hot steel fragments at 6,000 feet per second and driving a shock wave of several thousand pounds per square inch.

Instantaneously, a fireball lashes out at 8,500 degrees Farenheit, and the explosion gouges a 20-foot crater and hurls off 10,000 pounds of rock and dirt debris at supersonic speed.
 

exp

Platinum Member
May 9, 2001
2,150
0
0
That is an astonishingly low figure, especially considering the source. Before the war more Iraqis were dying every day (from the combined effects of the Saddam regime and economic sanctions) than that number.

 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
0
0
You know, if it makes you people sleep better at night, go ahead and convince yourself that Iraq caused ALL of the civilian casualties themselves. None of them were caused by coalition forces. That's right, our bombs are so pinpoint accurate that we can drop over 20,000 of them in and around residential areas and never miss. This, despite the fact that nearly one-half of the deaths to our own guys were caused by friendly-fire and accidents.

PS. Anyone know how many tons of radiative waste (depleted uranium) we've managed to get rid of over the last two gulf wars by dumping it on Iraqis in the form of bombs? I'm thinking if we can keep finding enemies to go to war with, we can get rid of all our radiactive waste this way.
 

NightTrain

Platinum Member
Apr 1, 2001
2,150
0
76
Originally posted by: Morph
You know, if it makes you people sleep better at night, go ahead and convince yourself that Iraq caused ALL of the civilian casualties themselves.
I sleep better knowing my side doesn't purposely target civilians and/or intentionally put them at risk...unlike the other side.

 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,824
0
76
Originally posted by: NightTrain
Originally posted by: Morph
You know, if it makes you people sleep better at night, go ahead and convince yourself that Iraq caused ALL of the civilian casualties themselves.
I sleep better knowing my side doesn't purposely target civilians and/or intentionally put them at risk...unlike the other side.
I'd say dropping bombs in a city is intentionally putting them at risk. I suppose you think they're all Nerf Bombs?

 

RossGr

Diamond Member
Jan 11, 2000
3,383
0
0
Every casualty, whether it be civilian, American soldier , or even Iraqi Fadayeen is regrettable. After all a human life is irreplaceable. Unfortunately, it is impossible to make an omelet without breaking eggs.

I cannot understand those who seem to be claiming that the Coalition TARGETED the marketplace or other civilian habitation. Can you imagine the death toll if such things WERE targeted?
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
0
0
RossGr,

No one is saying that we "targetted" the marketplace. But these "smart" bombs are not perfect. They can go off course and miss their targets. Their GPS guidance can be jammed. The human operators can make mistakes. Look at all the deaths due to accidents and friendly fire we've had in this war and in the last gulf war. And yet people want to believe that we can drop tens of thousands of bombs and not have any mistakes or miscues. That's just unrealistic.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Morph
PS. Anyone know how many tons of radiative waste (depleted uranium) we've managed to get rid of over the last two gulf wars by dumping it on Iraqis in the form of bombs? I'm thinking if we can keep finding enemies to go to war with, we can get rid of all our radiactive waste this way.
0, none, nada, DU is not used in bombs.
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
0
0
Originally posted by: etech
Morph
PS. Anyone know how many tons of radiative waste (depleted uranium) we've managed to get rid of over the last two gulf wars by dumping it on Iraqis in the form of bombs? I'm thinking if we can keep finding enemies to go to war with, we can get rid of all our radiactive waste this way.
0, none, nada, DU is not used in bombs.
Let me rephrase it then, although you know exactly what I'm taling about. How many tons of depleted uranium munitions?

Answer: over 300 tons in first gulf war, who knows how much in this one

British and American coalition forces are using depleted uranium (DU) shells in the war against Iraq and deliberately flouting a United Nations resolution which classifies the munitions as illegal weapons of mass destruction.

DU contaminates land, causes ill-health and cancers among the soldiers using the weapons, the armies they target and civilians, leading to birth defects in children.
US forces' Use of Depleted Uranium Weapons is 'Illegal'
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
2
0
Originally posted by: Morph
RossGr,

No one is saying that we "targetted" the marketplace. But these "smart" bombs are not perfect. They can go off course and miss their targets. Their GPS guidance can be jammed. The human operators can make mistakes. Look at all the deaths due to accidents and friendly fire we've had in this war and in the last gulf war. And yet people want to believe that we can drop tens of thousands of bombs and not have any mistakes or miscues. That's just unrealistic.
Well, I'm sure if Gore was the one in charge of the bombs being dropped you'd have no problems. Were you in such protest when Clinton was launching strikes against Iraq in 1998, and Kosovo in 1999?

Yes, it's tragic that innocents are dying but none of them would be dying by shrapnel or off-target strikes if Saddam hadn't violated 17 UN Resolutions and if he had surrendered before the conflict began last month.

What the heck do you want? What is your solution to remove Saddam without causing one death (either by Saddam's hand or by 'collateral damage').

BTW, why aren't you as outraged at the Iraqi troops' behavior of killing innocents in cold-blooded murder if they don't fight with them? Why aren't you outraged at the civilians killed by Iraqi AA fire in Sha'ab and Al Nasr? Your statements are hypocritical at best and your bias and ignorance are plain for all to see with your inane sig.
 

NightTrain

Platinum Member
Apr 1, 2001
2,150
0
76
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: NightTrain
Originally posted by: Morph
You know, if it makes you people sleep better at night, go ahead and convince yourself that Iraq caused ALL of the civilian casualties themselves.
I sleep better knowing my side doesn't purposely target civilians and/or intentionally put them at risk...unlike the other side.
I'd say dropping bombs in a city is intentionally putting them at risk. I suppose you think they're all Nerf Bombs?

We don't intentionally target civilians. Saddam's forces do.

I'm satisfied with my side. Are you?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
2
0

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: iamWolverine
Originally posted by: conjur
Links, please.

The reports I've read and heard in various places state the craters were way too small to have come from cruise missiles or JDAMs.


linked
No proof either way, just speculation by both sides.

 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur

Answer: over 300 tons in first gulf war, who knows how much in this one
300 tons of munitions...not DU.
[/quote]

WRONG. Thank you for playing. Please try again.

The 300+ tons is the weight of the DU. The total weight of munitions dumped into Iraq is of course a lot larger.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
2
0
Originally posted by: iamWolverine
Originally posted by: conjur
Links, please.

The reports I've read and heard in various places state the craters were way too small to have come from cruise missiles or JDAMs.


linked
HA!

Robert Fisk? Puh-leeze. He might as well be working for the Iraqi press.

 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,824
0
76
Originally posted by: NightTrain
Originally posted by: flavio
Originally posted by: NightTrain
Originally posted by: Morph
You know, if it makes you people sleep better at night, go ahead and convince yourself that Iraq caused ALL of the civilian casualties themselves.
I sleep better knowing my side doesn't purposely target civilians and/or intentionally put them at risk...unlike the other side.
I'd say dropping bombs in a city is intentionally putting them at risk. I suppose you think they're all Nerf Bombs?

We don't intentionally target civilians. Saddam's forces do.

I'm satisfied with my side. Are you?
Whether we intentionally target civilians or just accidently kill them because we dropped a bomb in the city and "accidently" killed them (who would have guessed that would happen?) what difference does it make? They still die because of our invasion.

 

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