So U.S. gets to decide what kind of government Iraq will be then??
BTW, it's from Bush's briefing on TV at the moment.
BTW, it's from Bush's briefing on TV at the moment.
"Iraq will be democratic!" - Bush
- Thread starter MC
- Start date
No. Why would we do that? They have Allah. We have God. We have proven God is stronger than Allah. We should decide. But why on earth would we make them a democracy if we (the United States of America) cannot be a democracy?
How exactly are we not a democracy? A democracy is a government ruled by the people either directly or through elected representatives, or in broader terms, a rule by the majority opinion. The US fits that description. But even if we don't fit that perfectly, we are still a hell of a lot more of a democracy than Iraq was. And, just call me crazy here, but if the Iraqi people are allowed to choose their form of government, isn't that democratic rule? And, again, call me crazy, but if given the choice, how many of them do you think will choose dictatorship over democracy? To put it another way, would you feel comfortable going to Iraq and telling the people in some village there, "Sorry, the US is evil so it wouldn't be right to support a democratic government in your country. We're just going to leave you at the mercy of whichever faction is the strongest. We don't want to interfere with your rights."
For those of you that don't think the US can set up a democracy, look at Japan. I'll admit we don't have the best track record, but Japan didn't turn out too bad, and we essentially wrote their constitution for them and created their new government after WWII. Iraq has a good base for a thriving economy from their oil, and if control of the country can be given to the people, they could do pretty well.
Yep, I'm being forced to go to a Christian Church and pray to God. I have no religious rights and Bush is forcing everyone to be Christian. Oh, wait, no he's not! Just because Bush is religious doesn't mean he's taking away seperation of church and state.
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The Kurds seem to like it very well. Where are the calls for an Islamic state coming from anyway? Iranian clerics. Remember the huge pilgirmage Saddam basically outlawed, the most important to their religion? Notice the Iranian clerics tried to organize a HUGE anti US/ pro Islamic state rally right afterwards, why not, there were MILLIONS of the most die hard believers there. Less than 3,000 attended the "rally", Pro US rallies and sentiments dwarfed them that day, seems many were gratefull for our action which had allowed them to practice their religion again freely. The LOCAL clerics have called for their religion to be kept separate from the govt, wisely so. They understand what happens when one group or idea has control over anything else, they have lived their entire lives under such tyranny. Many ofthe exiles agree a 3-6 member presidential "coucil" should be used rather than ONE person, does that sound like the US?
Anything better to do than bash the US?
Any comments on the admissions of hidden WMD programs? The links to Al-Queeda being found? Or do you not plan on addressing the facts that make the US credible?
There are differences over the role of the Americans. We here prefer the Americans to rule us in the interim period," said Suheil al-Suheil, a Baghdad lawyer. "We are not ready to handle this yet. Saddam's orphans are still alive."
Anything better to do than bash the US?
Any comments on the admissions of hidden WMD programs? The links to Al-Queeda being found? Or do you not plan on addressing the facts that make the US credible?
There are differences over the role of the Americans. We here prefer the Americans to rule us in the interim period," said Suheil al-Suheil, a Baghdad lawyer. "We are not ready to handle this yet. Saddam's orphans are still alive."
Semantics IMHO, but you're splitting hairs in any case. Fine, we'll help the Iraqis set up a republic, that doesn't change my point that I'm sure they would want something along those lines a hell of a lot more than they would want another dictator.
Speculation is not grounds for getting all pissed off about something. The page says nothing about funding only Christian groups, simply "faith based". The link you gave does nothing to disprove what I said. Freedom of religion is stronger in the US than it ever was. Don't believe me? Look at the beating the Boy Scouts are taking with public funding over their Christian only clause. This country used to be one big happy Christian family (regardless of what the constitution said), and now it's finally becoming what it was supposed to be in the first place. I personally think you have it backwards.
You're right. Its semantics. Something law basically revolves around. But I did learn something. I looked up democracy (dictionary.com rocks
), and saw the definition you had written. So democracy works in this case, unless you are a lawyer. Sorry about the confusion.Ok, I will agree with you that the anti-American demostrations are busts, but where are all these huge pro-America rallies you keep talking about? It seems to me that if they are not protesting the US, they are just staying home and tying to normalize thier lives. I just want to see some credible links validating the huge pro-US rally claims.
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
You're right. Its semantics. Something law basically revolves around. But I did learn something. I looked up democracy (dictionary.com rocks
Heh, no problem, I'm not a lawyer, I'm an engineer. And one thing you learn as an engineer is "close enough"
Rather than say it myself, here is an excellent link http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html about "Seperation of Church and State". Essentially it says that freedom of religion is what is guarenteed by the Constitution and the words "seperation" "church" and "state" appear no where in the first amendment. That phrase was used by Thomas Jefferson later to reasure people that the state would not establish an official religion or dicate to religions. Just read the link.
I did not say HUGE, I just said PRO, there were some, a few thousand each at any of them, but still more in number than the protests by far. They were also expressing their graitude to the US during the pilgrimage in various ways, both vocally and physically, carrying sign, flags, making gestures, etc.. I looked all over AJ and the BBC, couldn't find anything on those, do have some American media links but those are all biased anyway, lol.
IIMHO the people of Iraq want to continue thier new found freedom, and any claims of the majority feeling there should be an Islamic run state are false and not even being brouhgt forward by the people of Iraq. If anyone other than them gets to pick the Govt, I would rather have us than Iran...
Why? The same facts coming from Fox are somehow different? Has anyone been able to find one story or fact about this war NOT covered truthfully by Fox? j/c
Iraqis to Choose Interim Government in 4 Weeks
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - About 250 prominent members of Iraq (news - web sites)'s diverse political and ethnic groupings agreed at a U.S.-sponsored meeting on Monday to hold a national conference within four weeks to choose an interim government.
"All efforts should be made to hold a national conference within four weeks...to select a transitional Iraqi government," they said in a statement read out at the end of a nearly 10-hour meeting in Baghdad with U.S. postwar administrator Jay Garner. Many of the delegates and a British minister who attended the talks hailed the agreement as a breakthrough for democracy after decades of iron rule by Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).
"We are moving the process of forming an interim administration forward and they have intimated that they want to move it along quickly," British Foreign Office Minister Mike O'Brien said.
UN turned down invitation to attend US-sponsored Baghdad meeting
gotta love the UN, lol
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - About 250 prominent members of Iraq (news - web sites)'s diverse political and ethnic groupings agreed at a U.S.-sponsored meeting on Monday to hold a national conference within four weeks to choose an interim government.
"All efforts should be made to hold a national conference within four weeks...to select a transitional Iraqi government," they said in a statement read out at the end of a nearly 10-hour meeting in Baghdad with U.S. postwar administrator Jay Garner. Many of the delegates and a British minister who attended the talks hailed the agreement as a breakthrough for democracy after decades of iron rule by Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).
"We are moving the process of forming an interim administration forward and they have intimated that they want to move it along quickly," British Foreign Office Minister Mike O'Brien said.
UN turned down invitation to attend US-sponsored Baghdad meeting
gotta love the UN, lol
Hey, even if I thought FOX was an unbiased pillar of exemplary reporting, a good chunk of this forum would just dismiss it. So how about those links?
Lil, honestly cant find that report again, did not bother searching elsewhere. It was a side note aboue the march itself, only a paragraph out of the whole thing. I think it was a reuters story though.
However, Maj. Jason Chung, an intelligence officer with the 82nd, insisted participants in the trek to Karbala do not see it as a protest against the Americans.
"What we're getting is that it's really a demonstration of their liberation, that they have religious freedom now," he said Saturday. "It's important for them that it's a Shiite-run, Shiite-organized event."
"In the days of Saddam, if anyone did this march, he was killed," said Hussein Saman, 48, imprisoned for 11 years by Saddam Hussein's regime for openly practicing Shiite rituals. "The least penalty was prison, for life."
Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim, head of the Iran-based opposition group Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution of Iraq, has called on the Karbala march to be turned into an anti-U.S. demonstration.
thats a poor one for the US support, but lays out the Iranian influence in this minority sentiment that is being sensationalized. will find more for ya though,hold tight.
Cannot find the original, it has been replaced by other articles on the site. You gotta love the Arab press's interpretation, it was all about the "large anti-Us rallies", lol.
However, Maj. Jason Chung, an intelligence officer with the 82nd, insisted participants in the trek to Karbala do not see it as a protest against the Americans.
"What we're getting is that it's really a demonstration of their liberation, that they have religious freedom now," he said Saturday. "It's important for them that it's a Shiite-run, Shiite-organized event."
"In the days of Saddam, if anyone did this march, he was killed," said Hussein Saman, 48, imprisoned for 11 years by Saddam Hussein's regime for openly practicing Shiite rituals. "The least penalty was prison, for life."
Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim, head of the Iran-based opposition group Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution of Iraq, has called on the Karbala march to be turned into an anti-U.S. demonstration.
thats a poor one for the US support, but lays out the Iranian influence in this minority sentiment that is being sensationalized. will find more for ya though,hold tight.
Cannot find the original, it has been replaced by other articles on the site. You gotta love the Arab press's interpretation, it was all about the "large anti-Us rallies", lol.
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
You're right. Its semantics. Something law basically revolves around. But I did learn something. I looked up democracy (dictionary.com rocks
Heh, no problem, I'm not a lawyer, I'm an engineer. And one thing you learn as an engineer is "close enough"
That is an increadibly frightening thought...
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