Iraq: The Unseen War

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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It is my theory that many Americans who support the war in Iraq, only do so because it is an intangible, unseen thing -- and thus are immune to the horror of war. The disembodied victims, the children blown apart, and even our own boys taken down in their prime by bullets, IEDs or RPGs. I wonder where the alleged "liberal media" is in showing these images. If they're the "extreme leftists" as the right so often accuses them, why aren't they showing what really is happening in Iraq in our name.

And finally, I question how many war supporters would still be such uber patriot flag wavers after seeing these images. How many bashers of Cindy Sheehan do we see around here? Safe behind their computer screens, typing out their latest right-wing tirade against Cindy and the anti-war sentiment in this country.

Go ahead, see what war is really like.

(These images can be graphic. Warning.)

linkage

Iraq: The unseen war
The grim reality of Iraq rarely appears in the American press. This photo gallery reveals the war's horrible human toll.

Editor's note: The following photo gallery contains graphic and shocking images of death and devastation in Iraq.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Gary Kamiya

printe-mail

Aug. 23, 2005 This is a war the Bush administration does not want Americans to see. From the beginning, the U.S. government has attempted to censor information about the Iraq war, prohibiting photographs of the coffins of U.S. troops returning home and refusing as a matter of policy to keep track of the number of Iraqis who have been killed. President Bush has yet to attend a single funeral of a soldier killed in Iraq.

To be sure, this see-no-evil approach is neither surprising nor new. With the qualified exception of the Vietnam War, when images of body bags appeared frequently on the nightly news, American governments have always tightly controlled images of war. There is good reason for this. In war, a picture really is worth a thousand words. No story about a battle, no matter how eloquent, possesses the raw power of a photograph. And when it comes to war's ultimate consequences -- death and suffering -- there is simply no comparison: a photo of a dead man or woman has the capacity to unsettle those who see it, sometimes forever. The bloated corpses photographed by Mathew Brady after Antietam remain in the mind, their puffy, shocked faces haunting us like an obscene truth almost 150 years after the soldiers were cut down.

"War is hell," said Gen. Sherman, and everyone dutifully agrees. Yet the hell in Iraq is almost never shown. The few exceptions -- the charred bodies of American contractors hanging from a bridge in Fallujah, the blood-spattered little girl wailing after her parents were killed next to her -- only prove the rule.

Governments keep war hidden because it is hideous. To allow citizens to see its reality -- the shattered bodies, the wounded children, the incomprehensible mayhem -- is to risk eroding popular support for it. This is particularly true with wars that have less than overwhelming popular support to begin with. In the case of Vietnam, battlefield images played an important role in turning the tide of public opinion. And in Iraq, a war whose official justification has turned out to be false, and which a majority of the American people now believe to have been a mistake, the administration would prefer that these grim images never be seen.

But the media is also responsible for sanitizing the Iraq war, at times rendering it almost invisible. Most American publications have been reluctant to run graphic war images. Almost no photographs of the 1,868 U.S. troops who have been killed to date in Iraq have appeared in U.S. publications. In May 2005, the Los Angeles Times surveyed six major newspapers and the nation's two leading newsmagazines, and found that over a six-month period, no images of dead American troops appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Time or Newsweek. A single image of a covered body of a slain American ran in the Seattle Times. There were also comparatively few images of wounded Americans. The publications surveyed tended to run more images of dead or wounded Iraqis, but they have hardly been depicted in large numbers either.

There are a number of reasons why the media has shied away from running graphic images from Iraq. Some are simple logistics: There are very few photographers in Iraq. Freelance reporter and photographer Mitchell Prothero, a Salon contributor, estimates there are "maybe a dozen or two Western photographers" in Iraq, in addition to Iraqi and Arab stringers, who do most of the work for newswires. Ten or 20 photographers trying to cover a country the size of Sweden, under extremely difficult and dangerous conditions, are unlikely to be on the scene when violence erupts.

Moreover, most photographers are embedded with U.S. troops, a situation that imposes its own limits. Military regulations prevent photographers from publishing photographs of dead or wounded soldiers until their families have been notified, which can diminish the news value of the photographs. And although embed rules allow photographers to take pictures of dead or wounded troops, the reality on the ground can be different. Soldiers do not want photographers -- especially ones they aren't comfortable with -- taking pictures of their dead or wounded buddies. This is understandable, but it can result in de facto censorship.

One photographer, who requested anonymity because he didn't want to jeopardize his ongoing relationship with the U.S. military, told Salon, "I've had unit commanders tell me flat out that if anybody gets wounded on patrol, you can't take any pictures of them. Nearly every time I've landed at [a medevac] scene, guys have yelled at me, 'Get the f*ck away from me. Don't take my friend's picture. Get back on the helicopter.' Part of me understands that. I am a stranger to them. And they are very emotional. Their friend has been badly hurt or wounded, and they've probably all just been shot at 15 minutes before. I totally understand that, although it is a violation of embed rules."

But it isn't just the troops. Editors in the States are reluctant to run graphic photographs. There are various reasons for this. Perhaps the most important is taste: Many publications think graphic images are just too disturbing. Business considerations doubtless also play a role, although few editors would admit that; graphic images upset some readers and can scare off advertisers. (Salon pulled all advertising, except house ads, off the pages of this gallery.) And there are political considerations: Supporters of the war often accuse the media of playing up bad news at the expense of more positive developments. To run images of corpses is to risk being criticized of antiwar bias. When "Nightline" ran photographs of the faces of all the U.S. troops who had been killed in Iraq, conservative groups were enraged and accused the network of harming morale. Not every publisher is anxious to walk into this kind of trouble.

The reluctance of American publications to run shocking images contrasts with the European press. "In my experience and in conversations with other people who've been doing this a lot longer than me, American publications shy away from extremely graphic material, compared to European ones," says Prothero. "I don't know whether the American audience reacts more strongly against seeing that over the breakfast table. I do know, anecdotally, that many very talented photographers, on staff, have taken pictures that have not run in magazines or newspapers. Maybe it's not a conscious decision but American publications very much shy away from showing casualties of U.S. troops on the ground. I think they're afraid the American public will freak out on them for showing dead American boys."

Photographer Stephanie Sinclair's unforgettable photograph of a 6-year-old Iraqi girl killed by an American cluster bomb, which appears in the gallery, originally ran in the Chicago Tribune. Robin Daughtridge, the Tribune's deputy director of photography, told Salon that after the photographs first came in, "the news editor was worried about running them without an accompanying story." Others in the newsroom thought the photographs "were too graphic, and too much, because we generally don't run tight pictures of dead bodies. We had run pictures of dead Iraqi soldiers and a dead bus driver before, so there was a precedent for running them, but we don't take it lightly." They ended up calling the paper's editor in chief, Ann Marie Lipinski, who assigned a reporter to do a piece on cluster bombs and their legacy.

Ultimately, Daughtridge said, politics didn't enter into the decision: "It was more about the fact that if we're going to show this death up close and personal, we better have a story behind it. All of us in the newsroom are trying to tell the story and letting the readers make up their own minds." She added, "I felt proud of what we did that day. All of this stuff that you hear about happening to families in Iraq doesn't really hit home until you see that picture of the little girl."

For her part, Sinclair praised the Tribune for running the photo and the story. But, she said, "some of the publications I've worked for didn't run a lot of the Iraqi civilian stuff, the graphic pictures, the emotional pictures. I found that the Iraqi civilian story was really hard to get published in U.S. publications. And I worked for many. I don't know why. I think they're looking at their readership and they think their readers want to know about American troops, since they can relate to them more. They think that's what the audience wants."

Sinclair also noted that American readers and viewers get only a sanitized view of the horrific consequences of suicide bombings. "A lot of the bombing stuff that you see is really toned down. To be honest, sometimes it should be. God, it's relentless. It's hard to look at. People have no idea what's happening in Iraq. You wonder, even as a photographer, if you're being gratuitous by photographing some of this. At the same time, as horrific as it is to see, people should know how horrific it is to live it every day. We should feel some sort of responsibility to make sure we have the best possible grasp of what's happening there."

It is because we believe that the American people are not getting a look at the reality of the Iraq war, for Americans and Iraqis alike, that we decided to run this photo gallery. It is no secret that Salon has published many more pieces questioning and challenging the Iraq war than supporting it. But that is not why we think it is important that these images be seen. We would have run them even if we supported the war. The reason is simple: The truth should be told. People should know the truth about war. Before a nation decides to go to war, it should know what its consequences are.

There is no way for any journalist, whether reporter or photographer, to capture the multifaceted reality of Iraq. But all of the journalists I have spoken to who have worked in Iraq say that the blandly optimistic pronouncements made by the Bush administration about the situation in Iraq are completely false. A picture of a dead child only represents a fragment of the truth about Iraq -- but it is one that we do not have the right to ignore. We believe we have an ethical responsibility to those who have been killed or wounded, whether Iraqis, Americans or those of other nationalities, not to simply pretend that their fate never happened. To face the bitter truth of war is painful. But it is better than hiding one's eyes.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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I despise appeals to revulsion (which is a form of an appeal to emotion) like this.

Abortion protesters do it with nasty images of aborted fetuses.

Anti-war protesters do it with graphic images of war.

And if you actually believe that 'people just don't know,' you're only fooling yourself and nobody else.

Images of both are ugly, but I also realize those images are simply a fact of life. We have wars, we have abortions, humans needlessly die every day.

And humans keep moving on.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
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most of those could be from LA or NY, they could be from Israel or the Soviet Union.

Basically don't support the war because the terrorists and suicide bombers are killing people? What do you think they'll do if we leave? Just become schoolteachers and poets?
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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The sad thing is one should not need to see the pictures and videos to imagine what war is really like.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Images of both are ugly, but I also realize those images are simply a fact of life.

It's our acceptance of it as a fact of life that fails to prevent it from happening again and again. If people would like to end war, they'll have to do it themselves, as gov't sure as hell won't.

 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,577
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www.bing.com
I think its funny whenever one of these threads pop up, with a "these pics will make you realize what war is really like" comment in it. I always leave dissapointed.

So I check the pictures hoping it will live up to its claims, and no, thats not what war is really like.

Its WAY worse, I've seen things that make those pictures look nice. And theres more than what you see, theres also the sounds, the thick vapor in the air, the worst for me was the smells. I think most americans can stomach an ugly scene, we've been conditioned through movies and TV since we were little kids. The smell on the other hand catches most people off guard. It will hit you like a ton of bricks. and they are right that smell is the strongest sense tied to memory, that smell of gunpowder burnt flesh is hard to forget. And when a smell gets so thick you can practically FEEL it in your nose, you just wanna puke.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
5,962
2
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once smellovision becomes real, then we'll really know.

Maybe Time Mag should have a scratch and sniff photo section.

that being said, I appreciate your service. It takes a lot to be a Marine.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Train
I think its funny whenever one of these threads pop up, with a "these pics will make you realize what war is really like" comment in it. I always leave dissapointed.

So I check the pictures hoping it will live up to its claims, and no, thats not what war is really like.

Its WAY worse, I've seen things that make those pictures look nice. And theres more than what you see, theres also the sounds, the thick vapor in the air, the worst for me was the smells. I think most americans can stomach an ugly scene, we've been conditioned through movies and TV since we were little kids. The smell on the other hand catches most people off guard. It will hit you like a ton of bricks. and they are right that smell is the strongest sense tied to memory, that smell of gunpowder burnt flesh is hard to forget. And when a smell gets so thick you can practically FEEL it in your nose, you just wanna puke.


Yeah, I can only imagine (thank God I can only imagine). The pictures don't really tell the whole story. It's a horrible thing to send a man off to war. It's even worse when the war is unnecessry, but then again, not too many wars are necessary.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: Train
I think its funny whenever one of these threads pop up, with a "these pics will make you realize what war is really like" comment in it. I always leave dissapointed.

So I check the pictures hoping it will live up to its claims, and no, thats not what war is really like.

Its WAY worse...
Good point. I mean, pictures can only get you so close to the reality of it. And yet, somehow this is the kind of reporting I expect from the MSM. Frankly, most of the reporting on Iraq is so sugar-coated it sounds like a video game when 50+ civilians and 3-4 U.S. soldiers die in a car bomb.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Classy - Salon.com pimping Ogrish.com pics.

" I question how many war supporters would still be such uber patriot flag wavers after seeing these images"
And I question how many leftists consider them "freedom fighters" and "insurgents" when they see the corpses of civilians.

And why doesn't Salon.com show the huge pile of kids corpses from the recent car bombing (20+)? Oh sure they'll show you a few grown men and "suspected insurgents" killed by the terrorists - but the dead kids they show, well those are all because of the evil stormtroopers. Interesting how they would pick and choose that set of photos.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: Train
I think its funny whenever one of these threads pop up, with a "these pics will make you realize what war is really like" comment in it. I always leave dissapointed.

So I check the pictures hoping it will live up to its claims, and no, thats not what war is really like.

Its WAY worse...
Good point. I mean, pictures can only get you so close to the reality of it. And yet, somehow this is the kind of reporting I expect from the MSM. Frankly, most of the reporting on Iraq is so sugar-coated it sounds like a video game when 50+ civilians and 3-4 U.S. soldiers die in a car bomb.
Sugar coated? Do you mean sugar-coated like the reporting from the MSM of the Iraqis puting the constiution together? Why do we primarily hear about the setbacks and not some inside info on the compromises and agreements? Why do we hear so little from the MSM on the reconstruction effort, yet they don't fail to report every incident of a dead soldier or bombing of Iraqi civilians? Please. If the reporting was sugar coated we'd never hear about the deaths and they'd be giving us feel good, human interest stories on Iraq. But we rarely ever see that type of reporting.

 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
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I've seen imagages just as graphic...from car accidents....has the idea of getting your face ripped off by some idiot that ran a stop sign kept you from driving? doubt it....so what is your point?
 

Deudalus

Golden Member
Jan 16, 2005
1,090
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It is my theory that many Americans who support the war in Iraq, only do so because it is an intangible, unseen thing -- and thus are immune to the horror of war. The disembodied victims, the children blown apart, and even our own boys taken down in their prime by bullets, IEDs or RPGs.

I support the war because I am a realist and not an idealist, which is to say that death, violence, and inhumane acts are going to happen regardless of whether war is declared or not.

And finally, I question how many war supporters would still be such uber patriot flag wavers after seeing these images. How many bashers of Cindy Sheehan do we see around here? Safe behind their computer screens, typing out their latest right-wing tirade against Cindy and the anti-war sentiment in this country.

If all this post was aimed to do is to prop up Cindy Sheehan once again then I say you are now not only using her dead son as a political tool, but now you are using dead Iraqis as well.


I must ask you anti-war people something though.......

Do you think kids weren't tortured and killed before we went to Iraq?
What about the 1,500 kids that refused to join the Junior Baathist party and were locked underground for months until we found em and let em out?
What about the rape rooms?
What about the Iraqi soccer players that had their arms and legs broken if they lost?
What about the people who had their arms and legs chopped off for no particular reason?
What about the tens of thousands of people we have found in mass graves?


The fact is that these people could have either been tortured and killed under Saddam or they could have been casualties from the current war. If I was an Iraqi I would choose the latter because at least then I had some hope that life might not continue to suck.

Understand something, war is a horrible thing and thousands of people die. But avoidance of war will often times lead to far far greater numbers of casualties when war is simply unavoidable. If people would have done their job in the 1930's then 70 million people wouldn't have died in World War 2.


While I do appreciate your sentiment towards the US troops, the vast majority of them support what we are doing over there. We don't hear from soldiers everyday complaining that they don't believe in what they are doing. We hear that from hippies camping out on a dirt road in Crawford, Texas, we hear it from people like you on internet forums, we hear it from the pundits; but we don't hear that from very many soldiers.

My point of view on the soldiers is when they no longer believe in what they are doing we will know about it and I support their decision. I'm not going to base my judgement over what Fox, CNN, Michael Moore, Anne Coulter, or you tell me. I'll base it off of the morale and voice of our troops. You might think they are brainwashed idiots who can't tie their own shoes much less figure out what is right or wrong in the war, but I personally think they are smart enough to make up their own minds and I'd rather base my opinion off of their first hand perspective than anyone else's agenda.


I will agree with you that war is horrible. But to imagine a world without it is hoping for the unattainable. Comunism is also the ideal way, until you realize it doesn't work because it goes against natural human tendencies and behavior. To have a world without war would be completely against human behavior as well. I hope it happens, but until then I won't hold my breath.

And trying to be a pacifist in the hope that if you refuse to fight then no one else will is burying your head in the sand.
 

ViciouS

Golden Member
Apr 1, 2001
1,257
0
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War is war, it sux, but civilians die, and gorillas (insurgents) recruit children; this has been going on for ever. We are stuck there now and if we leave, everything will be 1000000 times worse.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I despise appeals to revulsion (which is a form of an appeal to emotion) like this.

Abortion protesters do it with nasty images of aborted fetuses.

Anti-war protesters do it with graphic images of war.

And if you actually believe that 'people just don't know,' you're only fooling yourself and nobody else.

Images of both are ugly, but I also realize those images are simply a fact of life. We have wars, we have abortions, humans needlessly die every day.

And humans keep moving on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought much the same thing after I posted it, but (A) it was too late, I already posted it! ;) and (B) I was compelled to help balance out all the anti-Cindy/pro-war threads. I'm sure you can understand that.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Classy - Salon.com pimping Ogrish.com pics.

" I question how many war supporters would still be such uber patriot flag wavers after seeing these images"
And I question how many leftists consider them "freedom fighters" and "insurgents" when they see the corpses of civilians.

And why doesn't Salon.com show the huge pile of kids corpses from the recent car bombing (20+)? Oh sure they'll show you a few grown men and "suspected insurgents" killed by the terrorists - but the dead kids they show, well those are all because of the evil stormtroopers. Interesting how they would pick and choose that set of photos.

Right, let's blame the "liberal media" while completely missing the point.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Sugar coated? Do you mean sugar-coated like the reporting from the MSM of the Iraqis puting the constiution together? Why do we primarily hear about the setbacks and not some inside info on the compromises and agreements? Why do we hear so little from the MSM on the reconstruction effort, yet they don't fail to report every incident of a dead soldier or bombing of Iraqi civilians? Please. If the reporting was sugar coated we'd never hear about the deaths and they'd be giving us feel good, human interest stories on Iraq. But we rarely ever see that type of reporting.
No I mean, not sugar-coating it would be to display the war in all of its gory detail. Sometimes I think al-Jazeera had the right idea...
 

TRUMPHENT

Golden Member
Jan 20, 2001
1,414
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Sugar coated? Do you mean sugar-coated like the reporting from the MSM of the Iraqis puting the constiution together? Why do we primarily hear about the setbacks and not some inside info on the compromises and agreements? Why do we hear so little from the MSM on the reconstruction effort, yet they don't fail to report every incident of a dead soldier or bombing of Iraqi civilians? Please. If the reporting was sugar coated we'd never hear about the deaths and they'd be giving us feel good, human interest stories on Iraq. But we rarely ever see that type of reporting.

Happy chucklehead stories may make you feel better but, they don't change the situation in Iraq one iota. Thanks to what you call Main Stream Medai, we know that Iraq's oil production hasn't reached prewar levels. The electrical grid is in worse shape. Power is off far more in post war Iraq. 3 summers without reliable power for airconditioning in a place like Iraq. You can't even store food in the refridgerator. You can't sleep on the roof at night because of the noise from helicopters.

What the Main Stream Medai has, inspite of government, reported on the massive level of destruction in Fallujah and the paltryamount of reconstruction going on there.

Didn't the Main Stream Medai report over a year ago about the innovative supply route to Baghdad? Yes, it did. At first glance this would appear to be the typical military airlift. Over the road transportation is just too mundane in this day and age.

Would you like another recronstruction story? Muqtada al Sadr has reconstructed his militia. So, there is a uniformed military service made up of Iraqis, props to Rumsfeld.

Personally I am tiring of news reports showing twisted, blackened metal that might have been an occupied vehicle earlier. I don't expect much to change anytime soon.


 

tommywishbone

Platinum Member
May 11, 2005
2,149
0
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... "The fact is that these people could have either been tortured and killed under Saddam or they could have been casualties from the current war. If I was an Iraqi I would choose the latter because at least then I had some hope that life might not continue to suck."...

This must be a joke.... right? You actually pretend to speak for the Iraqis? Their country is burning. Their children die in the street everyday. We rape their people, we burn their towns, we run wild without any measure of decency, but you take the sanctamonious position of determining which death is best for them. Madness. Madness.

And I put it to you sir; the time for intellectual content, the time for debate, was THREE years ago, BEFORE we decided that mass murder & carnage was correct path. Perhaps we have gotten to the point where reason, relevance & intellect are no longer avenues of choice. When your house is on fire and half the family is dead, you don't sit down and review the best options; you scream and run! It's time to run.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Only the morally bankrupt neocons and their followers love WAR enough to accept one based on lies.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: TRUMPHENT
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Sugar coated? Do you mean sugar-coated like the reporting from the MSM of the Iraqis puting the constiution together? Why do we primarily hear about the setbacks and not some inside info on the compromises and agreements? Why do we hear so little from the MSM on the reconstruction effort, yet they don't fail to report every incident of a dead soldier or bombing of Iraqi civilians? Please. If the reporting was sugar coated we'd never hear about the deaths and they'd be giving us feel good, human interest stories on Iraq. But we rarely ever see that type of reporting.

Happy chucklehead stories may make you feel better but, they don't change the situation in Iraq one iota. Thanks to what you call Main Stream Medai, we know that Iraq's oil production hasn't reached prewar levels. The electrical grid is in worse shape. Power is off far more in post war Iraq. 3 summers without reliable power for airconditioning in a place like Iraq. You can't even store food in the refridgerator. You can't sleep on the roof at night because of the noise from helicopters.

What the Main Stream Medai has, inspite of government, reported on the massive level of destruction in Fallujah and the paltryamount of reconstruction going on there.

Didn't the Main Stream Medai report over a year ago about the innovative supply route to Baghdad? Yes, it did. At first glance this would appear to be the typical military airlift. Over the road transportation is just too mundane in this day and age.

Would you like another recronstruction story? Muqtada al Sadr has reconstructed his militia. So, there is a uniformed military service made up of Iraqis, props to Rumsfeld.

Personally I am tiring of news reports showing twisted, blackened metal that might have been an occupied vehicle earlier. I don't expect much to change anytime soon.
I'm not asking for "happy chucklehead stories." I'm asking for more balanced reporting. It MAY not change things in Iraq much but at least it will let the American public have some comprehension that things are not just death and destruction in Iraq, as the MSM would seemingly like everyone to believe.

As far as power, the capacity is very near or possibly exceed prewar levels now. It's not "off far more" and the fact you believe that shows just how much the MSM needs to show people the other side of the coin because they obviously won't go find the facts on their own and latch on to whatever pessimism suits them. Additionally, we see most of the electricity complaints coming from Baghdad. Sure it was better in Baghdad in Saddam's day, because he raped the rest of the power grid in Iraq to ensure Baghdad has power the majority of the time. Even then there will still failures in Baghdad because Saddam felt it more necessary to spend millions building palaces around Iraq than fixing up the electrical infrastructure, which had been deteriorating and left unfixed since the Iran/Iraq war, or providing food to his starving people. So let's stop pretending things were better off under Saddam.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: tommywishbone
... "The fact is that these people could have either been tortured and killed under Saddam or they could have been casualties from the current war. If I was an Iraqi I would choose the latter because at least then I had some hope that life might not continue to suck."...

This must be a joke.... right? You actually pretend to speak for the Iraqis? Their country is burning. Their children die in the street everyday. We rape their people, we burn their towns, we run wild without any measure of decency, but you take the sanctamonious position of determining which death is best for them. Madness. Madness.

And I put it to you sir; the time for intellectual content, the time for debate, was THREE years ago, BEFORE we decided that mass murder & carnage was correct path. Perhaps we have gotten to the point where reason, relevance & intellect are no longer avenues of choice. When your house is on fire and half the family is dead, you don't sit down and review the best options; you scream and run! It's time to run.
It appears to me he's speaking for himself "If" he were an Iraqi.

And, truthfully, we get more lectures from the left about how terrible it is in Iraq, how the Iraqi people are suffering, what they want from government and life; so the left seems to speak as a proxy for Iraqis quite often. During their diatribes they seem to forget that the Iraqis have spoken themselves already and are glad Saddam is gone, have hope for a better future, and don't want a religious government. But you wouldn't know that by listening to the anti-war crew in the US because they so often neglect to mention those little niggling facts.