" Iraq says talks with U.S. on pact deadlocked"

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Link

AMMAN (Reuters) - Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said on Friday talks with the United States on a long-term security pact were at a stalemate because of U.S. demands that encroached on Iraq's sovereignty.

The United States and Iraq are negotiating a new security deal to provide a legal basis for U.S. troops to stay in Iraq after December 31, when their United Nations mandate expires, as well as a separate long-term agreement on political, economic and security ties between the two countries.

"We have reached a deadlock, because when we started the talks, we found that the U.S. demands hugely infringe on the sovereignty of Iraq, and this we can never accept," Maliki said, speaking in Arabic to journalists during a visit to Jordan.

The talks have been taking place behind closed doors. U.S. officials have refused to be drawn on their content other than to say the agreement will have no secret annexes and that it will be open to scrutiny by the Iraqi parliament.

In his first detailed comments on the talks, Maliki said Iraq objected to Washington's insistence on giving its troops immunity from prosecution in Iraq and freedom to conduct operations independent of Iraqi control.

"We can't extend the U.S. forces permission to arrest Iraqis or to undertake the responsibility of fighting terrorism in an independent way, or to keep Iraqi skies and waters open for themselves whenever they want," he said.

"One of the important issues that the U.S. is asking for is immunity for its soldiers and those contracting with it. We reject this totally."

Speaking later to members of the Iraqi community in Amman, Maliki sought to soften his remarks, saying that while there was a deadlock on preliminary drafts of the security agreement, fresh ideas were being put forward by both sides.

The United States has similar "status of forces" agreements with 80 countries, with provisions to protect U.S. soldiers from prosecution by a foreign judiciary.

POSTURING?

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates, speaking in Brussels on the sidelines of a NATO meeting, indicated there might be a difference between public statements about the talks and progress inside the negotiating room.

"I will have to when I get home find out what the status of the negotiations is and whether there's a difference between what's actually going on in the negotiations and public posture," he said.

U.S. President George W. Bush said on Wednesday he was still confident of reaching an agreement with Iraq. U.S. officials say they hope to reach a deal by July, but Iraqi officials have been more cautious and have suggested that date may be missed.

Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari told the Dubai-based al Arabiya television station in an interview broadcast on Friday there was "true flexibility" from the American side on the status of forces pact.

The talks have sparked heated debate both in Iraq and the United States, where Democrat lawmakers fear that any agreement could lock the United States into a long-term military presence in Iraq and bind the hands of the next U.S. president.

The controversy over the immunity from Iraqi prosecution that soldiers and security contractors enjoy stems partly from an incident in Baghdad in September 2007 in which guards working for U.S. private security firm Blackwater were accused of killing 17 Iraqis. The shooting enraged the Iraqi government.

Some Iraqi politicians, including anti-American Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr have also criticized the government, saying the agreement would infringe Iraq's sovereignty. The cleric has called for weekly protests after Friday prayers.

Joost Hiltermann, an analyst with the International Crisis Group think tank, described Maliki's remarks as "posturing."

"They may not agree on the terms, but both sides want this agreement ... This may just be a way to push the Americans to come back with something more palatable," he said.


Is anyone really surprised? It seems the US is not trying to create a successful, sovereign Iraq, but instead, trying to prevent it. I predict Iraq will eventually have a corrupt, brutal government, and our military will be used to keep it in power, as it satisfies our needs more so than the Iraqi's.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
66
91
It's way past time to take our toys off the table and come home.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.

I don't think that will fly, unless we want a complete collapse of our support there.

It would be a nail in the coffin to whatever noble ideas we're still trying to sell over there.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.

I doubt it and under which president? By the time this comes around Bush will be on his farewell tour sipping cocktails as he flies Air Force 1 around the world. He wont care. So is Obama or McCain going to dethrown the current regime? I just dont see that happening. In fact if we get tossed out it is a great way to come home without having to debate if we lost. The fact they tossed us out proves we got them to a point they wanted. If they crumble from internal strife it is off our backs as they tossed us out.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.

I doubt it and under which president? By the time this comes around Bush will be on his farewell tour sipping cocktails as he flies Air Force 1 around the world. He wont care. So is Obama or McCain going to dethrown the current regime? I just dont see that happening. In fact if we get tossed out it is a great way to come home without having to debate if we lost. The fact they tossed us out proves we got them to a point they wanted. If they crumble from internal strife it is off our backs as they tossed us out.

Who says it has to happen in 4 or even 8 years? We'll have a presence there no matter what for decades.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.

I doubt it and under which president? By the time this comes around Bush will be on his farewell tour sipping cocktails as he flies Air Force 1 around the world. He wont care. So is Obama or McCain going to dethrown the current regime? I just dont see that happening. In fact if we get tossed out it is a great way to come home without having to debate if we lost. The fact they tossed us out proves we got them to a point they wanted. If they crumble from internal strife it is off our backs as they tossed us out.

You know...this really doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Of all the possible outcomes I have thought of and have read about involving when and why we bring the troops home, this one appeals the most to me.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.

I doubt it and under which president? By the time this comes around Bush will be on his farewell tour sipping cocktails as he flies Air Force 1 around the world. He wont care. So is Obama or McCain going to dethrown the current regime? I just dont see that happening. In fact if we get tossed out it is a great way to come home without having to debate if we lost. The fact they tossed us out proves we got them to a point they wanted. If they crumble from internal strife it is off our backs as they tossed us out.

Who says it has to happen in 4 or even 8 years? We'll have a presence there no matter what for decades.

Ok in 4-8 years after we get kicked out we are going to go back in? Political suicide anybody? By then the WoT will be a thing of the past, 9-11 a glossed over part of history.

In other words I really doubt the next administration would want to risk their political lives on going back into Iraq after x amount of years.
 

eleison

Golden Member
Mar 29, 2006
1,319
0
0
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.

I doubt it and under which president? By the time this comes around Bush will be on his farewell tour sipping cocktails as he flies Air Force 1 around the world. He wont care. So is Obama or McCain going to dethrown the current regime? I just dont see that happening. In fact if we get tossed out it is a great way to come home without having to debate if we lost. The fact they tossed us out proves we got them to a point they wanted. If they crumble from internal strife it is off our backs as they tossed us out.

You know...this really doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Of all the possible outcomes I have thought of and have read about involving when and why we bring the troops home, this one appeals the most to me.

Didn't this happen in Basra? The british left, and it went to the toliet. The Basrian then had to ask the british back to keep law and order..

 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.

I doubt it and under which president? By the time this comes around Bush will be on his farewell tour sipping cocktails as he flies Air Force 1 around the world. He wont care. So is Obama or McCain going to dethrown the current regime? I just dont see that happening. In fact if we get tossed out it is a great way to come home without having to debate if we lost. The fact they tossed us out proves we got them to a point they wanted. If they crumble from internal strife it is off our backs as they tossed us out.

Who says it has to happen in 4 or even 8 years? We'll have a presence there no matter what for decades.

Ok in 4-8 years after we get kicked out we are going to go back in? Political suicide anybody? By then the WoT will be a thing of the past, 9-11 a glossed over part of history.

In other words I really doubt the next administration would want to risk their political lives on going back into Iraq after x amount of years.

They're not gonna kick us out of Iraq. It would be suicide for the Iraqi government.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Bunch of Iraqi ingrates, here we liberated them from Saddam and they were they were so dumb that they said Chaliwho when we presented them with our choice of a new Shah.
And now those dummies still have not learned how good and great we are after we have brought conditions that have resulted in the violent deaths of many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and the exiling of a few million more.

As an American citizen, I just can't understand why the Iraqi people would not want us to stay forever, because a home grown thug like Saddam can't hold a candle to GWB when it comes to mis managing a country. Good ole yankee know how wins again. And since term limits prevent GWB from practicing his love on America, maybe we can ship him over to Iraq and his physical presence will soon put everything right. And GWB&Cheney can do much more for Iraq than our 150,000 troops and our 150,000 carpetbagging contractors we can then then call home.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: eleison
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.

I doubt it and under which president? By the time this comes around Bush will be on his farewell tour sipping cocktails as he flies Air Force 1 around the world. He wont care. So is Obama or McCain going to dethrown the current regime? I just dont see that happening. In fact if we get tossed out it is a great way to come home without having to debate if we lost. The fact they tossed us out proves we got them to a point they wanted. If they crumble from internal strife it is off our backs as they tossed us out.

You know...this really doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Of all the possible outcomes I have thought of and have read about involving when and why we bring the troops home, this one appeals the most to me.

Didn't this happen in Basra? The british left, and it went to the toliet. The Basrian then had to ask the british back to keep law and order..

I know that the short answer is yes, but I am not familiar enough with the details about that event to make an educated prediction about whether or not the same thing would occur with the US. Even if it does, I'd say we would be in a better position than we are now.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
2
0
The Iraqi govt. doesn't even know how to pay their soldiers.

They have billions of dollars sitting there with no accountant and they just hand out money to the Iraqi soldiers with zero bookkeeping. Brilliant.

You would think that they would at least have some basic accounting background.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
The US is never going to allow it's troops to be allowed to be subjagated under anothers legal authority. There's a whole lot of stuff that can be negotiable, but that's pretty much where you will be seeing a line.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Genx87
Well this would make bringing the troops home easy if they toss us out.

I think we'd find a "reason" to remove the Iraqi government if they don't play by our rules and put in another that will.

I wish to god someone would do that to us. 8-(
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
It's not like we couldn't see it coming ...

Iraq To Cheney: ?No, Big Fat No? To Permanent U.S. Bases
October 19th, 2007

In an interview with CNN Iraqi National Security Adviser, Mowaffak Al-Rubaie sent a clear message directed at Vice President Dick Cheney that his country will not tolerate permanent U.S. bases.

Iraq ?put the U.S. on notice.? Iraq?s National Security Advisor, doesn?t mince words.

?The people of Iraq, the Parliament, the Council of Representative and the government of Iraq, all say no, big fat no, N, O, No military bases for Iraq because we believe that is in direct encroachment to our sovereignty, and we don?t need it.?


?That message was delivered directly to Vice President Dick Cheney at the White House.?
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
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The United States has similar "status of forces" agreements with 80 countries, with provisions to protect U.S. soldiers from prosecution by a foreign judiciary.

In case anyone missed/skipped it the first time..
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
The United States has similar "status of forces" agreements with 80 countries, with provisions to protect U.S. soldiers from prosecution by a foreign judiciary.

In case anyone missed/skipped it the first time..

Yes, but I would be willing to bet that those 80 countries don't have mercenaries & private contractors such as Blackwater running around the country reeking havok. Do those "provisions" cover mercs?

Maliki said the deal was to have been "between two completely sovereign states" but that American proposals "do not take into consideration Iraq's sovereignty."

Sooner or later,(sounds like sooner) self-determination is going to creep into the minds of the Iraqi's & their government. It remains to be seen if we will grant that to them.
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
0
Originally posted by: palehorse
The United States has similar "status of forces" agreements with 80 countries, with provisions to protect U.S. soldiers from prosecution by a foreign judiciary.

In case anyone missed/skipped it the first time..

The devil is in the details.

How many of them claim total immunity for the US military? Or give total airspace control to the US? Or allow the US to unilaterally arrest/detain their citizens for as long as we want, without the host nation being able to do anything about it? Or conduct miltary operations within their country without any notification or approval by the host government?
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
THEY WANT US OUT!

... But it was never really about what the Iraqis wanted, anyway, was it...?
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,208
7,710
136
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Originally posted by: palehorse
The United States has similar "status of forces" agreements with 80 countries, with provisions to protect U.S. soldiers from prosecution by a foreign judiciary.

In case anyone missed/skipped it the first time..

Yes, but I would be willing to bet that those 80 countries don't have mercenaries & private contractors such as Blackwater running around the country reeking havok. Do those "provisions" cover mercs?

Maliki said the deal was to have been "between two completely sovereign states" but that American proposals "do not take into consideration Iraq's sovereignty."

Sooner or later,(sounds like sooner) self-determination is going to creep into the minds of the Iraqi's & their government. It remains to be seen if we will grant that to them.

Wow, you hit that one right on the nail head. Let me borrow that phrase from you and expound on it a little, if i may.

Self determination....a cornerstone of democracy. A true goal for the Soverign Nation of Iraq. Stand them up (in your image, right, Cheney?) so we can stand down and come home. That's a promise made by you and Bush, remember?

But wait! Now you say *we?*(as in you, Bush and now McCain?)need to keep our troops over there to help the Iraqi's ensure their goal of the *conditional* self-determination that you and Bush chose for them is achieved and maintained with our special kind of unwanted help that keeps their oil in the hands of your oil buddies....I mean....that keeps Iraq secure from terrorists....that would use the oil as a WMD maybe? Or what was it that you and Bush said again?

To do that, you're...i mean *we* are going to keep our troops there permanently (like in Japan and Germany *only different* - because of a small little detail where Japan and Germany wants us there and the Iraqi's don't? And the Iraqi's can kiss Rumsfeld's wrinkled ass if they don't like the idea? That's some kind of special *self-determination* there, Cheney.

I guess that's what happens when your foreign affairs policy is just a paper sack full of lies mixed with propaganda, deception and unstated hidden agendas.

GET LOST ALREADY, YOU CREEPS.

GO GO OBAMA

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
It was a farce, it stole Iraqi sovereignty and it's not surprising there is resistance on the part of the Iraqis with it.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
I guess the NeoContards won't be happy until they shred someone else's Constitution, too :p

Iraq Constitution

Chapter 1, Article 1
The Republic of Iraq is an independent, sovereign nation, and the system of rule in it is a democratic, federal, representative (parliamentary) republic.

Chapter 1, Article 2(c)
No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.

Chapter 2 Section 1, Article 17(2)
The sanctity of the homes is inviolable and homes may not be entered, searched, or put in danger, except by a judicial decision, and in accordance with the law.

Chapter 2 Section 1, Article 19
(5) The accused is innocent until proven guilty in a fair legal trial.

(6) Every person has the right to be treated with justice in judicial and administrative proceedings.

(12)(a) - Unlawful detention is prohibited.
(12)(b) -detention or arrest is prohibited in places not designed for it, pursuant to prison regulations covered by health and social care and subject to the scrutiny of the law.

Chapter 2 Section 1, Article 20(1)
No Iraqi shall be surrendered to foreign entities and authorities.

Chapter 2 Section 2, Article 35(1)
(a) - The liberty and dignity of man are safeguarded.

(b) - No person may be kept in custody or interrogated except in the context of a judicial decision.

(c) - All forms of psychological and physical torture and inhumane treatment shall be prohibited. Any confession coerced by force, threat, or torture shall not be relied on.

Chapter 2 Section 2, Article 38
The freedom of communication, and mail, telegraphic, electronic, and telephonic correspondence, and other correspondence shall be guaranteed and may not be monitored, wiretapped or disclosed except for legal and security necessity and by a judicial decision.

Chapter 3, Section 1, Article 48
Each member of the Council of Representatives must take the following constitutional oath before the Council prior to assuming his duties:

I swear by God the Almighty to carry out my legal tasks and responsibilities devotedly and honestly and preserve the independence and sovereignty of Iraq, and safeguard the interests of its people, and watch over the safety of its land, skies, waters, resources and federal democratic system, and I shall endeavor to protect public and private liberties, the independence of the judiciary and adhere to the applications of the legislation neutrally and faithfully. God is my witness.

Chapter 3, Section 2(1), Article 68
The President shall take the Constitutional Oath before the Council of Representatives in the form stipulated in Article 48 of the Constitution.

Chapter 2 Section 1, Article 58(6)
(b) Relieve the President of the Republic by an absolute majority of the Council of Representatives members after being convicted by the Supreme Federal Court in one of the following cases:

1) - Perjury of the constitutional oath.
2) - Violating the Constitution.
3) - High treason.

Chapter 3, Section 3(2), Article 90
The Federal Supreme Court shall have jurisdiction over the following:

1) - Oversight of the constitutionality of laws and regulations in effect.
2) - Interpretation of the provisions of the constitution.