Iraq: losing the American way

[sMiLeYz]

Another fine piece from the American Conservative

It's a looooong piece but very blunt article about why we are failing in Iraq and what the consequences are.

The failure of democratization in Iraq will discredit similar U.S. efforts elsewhere. The damage will be greatest in the Middle East and in the Muslim world more broadly, where Islamism will be left as the only valid ideology and Islamization as the only vital political and social project. Elsewhere, the harm will not be as profound, but for a few years at least, other countries will dismiss any U.S. proclamations and promotions of democratization as just another preposterous, feckless, and tiresome American conceit.

 

[fjord]

A thoughtful piece.

Perhaps we are failing in Iraq etc. because we have strayed away from our democratic ways domestically.

It is unrealistic to expect success of democratization projects abroad (even if that were a legitimate course of action), when our house is in such ill-repair.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Another fine piece from the American Conservative

It's a looooong piece but very blunt article about why we are failing in Iraq and what the consequences are.

The failure of democratization in Iraq will discredit similar U.S. efforts elsewhere. The damage will be greatest in the Middle East and in the Muslim world more broadly, where Islamism will be left as the only valid ideology and Islamization as the only vital political and social project. Elsewhere, the harm will not be as profound, but for a few years at least, other countries will dismiss any U.S. proclamations and promotions of democratization as just another preposterous, feckless, and tiresome American conceit.

an interesting article, but i wonder where the evidence of this failure is?

the majority of iraqi's want us there.
medical care is more available now than under saddam pre-war
electricity is more available as well than under saddam.
a new constitution has just been inacted that contains a bill of rights almost exactly like our own.

yes, it is a struggle. but in this age of where instant gratification is demanded somebody somehwere forgot that building a true free nation is not easy, and costs alot of blood.(mostly paid by iraqi's themselves) and takes alot of TIME.

the darker aspect is there are many abroad and here in this country who WANT democracy in iraq to fail, most will not come out and say so. but they exist.

the more iraqi's taste freedom, the more they will grow emboldened to defend it such as this iraqi here

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: sMiLeYz
Another fine piece from the American Conservative

It's a looooong piece but very blunt article about why we are failing in Iraq and what the consequences are.

The failure of democratization in Iraq will discredit similar U.S. efforts elsewhere. The damage will be greatest in the Middle East and in the Muslim world more broadly, where Islamism will be left as the only valid ideology and Islamization as the only vital political and social project. Elsewhere, the harm will not be as profound, but for a few years at least, other countries will dismiss any U.S. proclamations and promotions of democratization as just another preposterous, feckless, and tiresome American conceit.

an interesting article, but i wonder where the evidence of this failure is?

the majority of iraqi's want us there.
medical care is more available now than under saddam pre-war
electricity is more available as well than under saddam.
a new constitution has just been inacted that contains a bill of rights almost exactly like our own.

yes, it is a struggle. but in this age of where instant gratification is demanded somebody somehwere forgot that building a true free nation is not easy, and costs alot of blood.(mostly paid by iraqi's themselves) and takes alot of TIME.

the darker aspect is there are many abroad and here in this country who WANT democracy in iraq to fail, most will not come out and say so. but they exist.

the more iraqi's taste freedom, the more they will grow emboldened to defend it such as this iraqi here

medical care is more available now than under saddam pre-war
- This is not true.


from the Washingtonpost

 

[CaptnKirk]

Most Iraqi's are Ignorant of the constitution's contents
(From the Washington Post)

<CLIP>

They knew that a national constitution was being drafted. They had heard vaguely about disagreements among the officials writing it. But for many ordinary Iraqis, the details and the significance of the document, which was signed Monday and billed as a framework for self-rule, remained largely a mystery.

In several interviews in Karrada, a crowded commercial district in the Iraqi capital, the dominant theme was ignorance of the interim constitution's basic features, even among those who said they watch and read the news regularly. Those who were familiar with the outline of the new law said they doubted it would produce political stability and democracy after the U.S. civil occupation officially ends on June 30.

Most Iraqis interviewed could not name any of the constitution's 63 articles and did not know that they included a bill of rights or provided for a federalist and republican form of government.

"We must read it first, before we know what to think about it," said Ahmed Hassan, 35, who runs a small perfume shop.

Hassan said the local news media have provided little information about the constitution. His wife, Khadijah Radhi, 30, agreed. "It wasn't on television or in the paper," she said. "Until now, we didn't know what were the points of disagreement."

Occupation officials said they hoped to build support for the constitution through outreach. "There will be an elaborate public information campaign to begin talking about the document in even greater detail," a senior U.S. official said Monday.

Ali Bashar Aboud Moussawi, 27, a taxi driver who lives in Sadr City, Baghdad's large Shiite Muslim slum, said he believed a constitution could unify a country historically divided along ethnic, tribal and religious lines. "We want the country united: not Sunni, not Shiite," Moussawi said.

But another resident said that those very divisions have already generated resistance to the constitution, particularly among those who fear Iraq's Shiite majority will dominate the next government.

"A lot of people won't support it, even though they haven't read or understood it," said Ali Abdulhussein Assawi, 49, a Sunni. He said he has discussed the document with many friends, including Nasir Chaderchi, a member of the Governing Council, the U.S.-appointed panel that drafted the constitution.

Many said they were glad that the constitution endorsed Islam as Iraq's official religion. Ghada Abdullah, a Chaldean Christian, said she would have preferred a totally secular state but that she supports the freedom of conscience enshrined in the new law. "The most important thing is that we will be free to pray and practice the religion we choose," said Abdullah, 39, a tailor.

About the only unanimous point of support was for the provision specifying that women should make up at least 25 percent of Iraq's new legislature. In fact, one man, Rashid Nasser Saifi, 50, who owns a jewelry store, said, "Twenty-five percent is too few. Women in Iraq have suffered for a long time."

Two survivors of Iraq's tumultuous political history offered stoic reactions to the signing.

"Let's be honest: Everything is in the hands of the Americans," said Hassan Momen Muhammad, 70, a Shiite who was born shortly after Iraq became independent in 1932. "They will do, fix or unfix everything."

Abdulhassan Rawaf, 63, was not even certain that he supported republican government. In Rawaf's carpet and antiques shop, he still hangs a picture of Iraq's last king, Faisal II, who was overthrown in 1958. "I'm a monarchy guy," he said. "There wasn't democracy, but at least there was stability.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you or could you live for the forseeable future under a concept that you have not been adequately introduced to,
have no concept of the mechanics of operation of the system, and don't even begin to understand ?

 

[tnitsuj]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Most Iraqi's are Ignorant of the constitution's contents
(From the Washington Post)

<CLIP>

They knew that a national constitution was being drafted. They had heard vaguely about disagreements among the officials writing it. But for many ordinary Iraqis, the details and the significance of the document, which was signed Monday and billed as a framework for self-rule, remained largely a mystery.

In several interviews in Karrada, a crowded commercial district in the Iraqi capital, the dominant theme was ignorance of the interim constitution's basic features, even among those who said they watch and read the news regularly. Those who were familiar with the outline of the new law said they doubted it would produce political stability and democracy after the U.S. civil occupation officially ends on June 30.

Most Iraqis interviewed could not name any of the constitution's 63 articles and did not know that they included a bill of rights or provided for a federalist and republican form of government.

"We must read it first, before we know what to think about it," said Ahmed Hassan, 35, who runs a small perfume shop.

Hassan said the local news media have provided little information about the constitution. His wife, Khadijah Radhi, 30, agreed. "It wasn't on television or in the paper," she said. "Until now, we didn't know what were the points of disagreement."

Occupation officials said they hoped to build support for the constitution through outreach. "There will be an elaborate public information campaign to begin talking about the document in even greater detail," a senior U.S. official said Monday.

Ali Bashar Aboud Moussawi, 27, a taxi driver who lives in Sadr City, Baghdad's large Shiite Muslim slum, said he believed a constitution could unify a country historically divided along ethnic, tribal and religious lines. "We want the country united: not Sunni, not Shiite," Moussawi said.

But another resident said that those very divisions have already generated resistance to the constitution, particularly among those who fear Iraq's Shiite majority will dominate the next government.

"A lot of people won't support it, even though they haven't read or understood it," said Ali Abdulhussein Assawi, 49, a Sunni. He said he has discussed the document with many friends, including Nasir Chaderchi, a member of the Governing Council, the U.S.-appointed panel that drafted the constitution.

Many said they were glad that the constitution endorsed Islam as Iraq's official religion. Ghada Abdullah, a Chaldean Christian, said she would have preferred a totally secular state but that she supports the freedom of conscience enshrined in the new law. "The most important thing is that we will be free to pray and practice the religion we choose," said Abdullah, 39, a tailor.

About the only unanimous point of support was for the provision specifying that women should make up at least 25 percent of Iraq's new legislature. In fact, one man, Rashid Nasser Saifi, 50, who owns a jewelry store, said, "Twenty-five percent is too few. Women in Iraq have suffered for a long time."

Two survivors of Iraq's tumultuous political history offered stoic reactions to the signing.

"Let's be honest: Everything is in the hands of the Americans," said Hassan Momen Muhammad, 70, a Shiite who was born shortly after Iraq became independent in 1932. "They will do, fix or unfix everything."

Abdulhassan Rawaf, 63, was not even certain that he supported republican government. In Rawaf's carpet and antiques shop, he still hangs a picture of Iraq's last king, Faisal II, who was overthrown in 1958. "I'm a monarchy guy," he said. "There wasn't democracy, but at least there was stability.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you or could you live for the forseeable future under a concept that you have not been adequately introduced to,
have no concept of the mechanics of operation of the system, and don't even begin to understand ?

So what? Most Americans are ignorant of our constitutions contents.

 

[Witling]

Speaking of, "I wonder where the evidence is." as Shad0wHawk wrote, Shad, where's the evidence for your assertions?

 

[CaptnKirk]

So what? Most Americans are ignorant of our constitutions contents.

Let's see here - starting in Elementry School with American and State History,
continuing into Junior High with even more American and World History,
and on into High School with American History (remedial) and Civics,
then for those who go to college for a Political Science Major, our culture
tries to give our students the chance ot learn, reason, and think.

Now most of the regular American students can't be bothered with the facts of our nations history
as it would interfere with their socializing and home sports involvement (and being cool),
so in todays society they couldn't answer a few simple question about our history.
EXAMPLES -
1) Who is burried in Grant's tomb ?
2) When was the war af 1812 fought.
3) Where was the Battle of Gettysburg ?
(Hint - none of these are True/False)
Given a map of the world or a globe, few could locate Iraq or Afganistan, and hardly any would care anyway.

So by being 'Educated' for a span of at least 10 years to our country's history and Constitution they didn't learn ?
Shame on them - given the opportunity to learn and choosing to remain clueless is their own damn fault.

Now with Iraq - they have never seen anything even remotely like what we are choosing to force on them,
and we are doing so without taking the opportunity to educate them on what may be their entire future hopes.
These people are eager and anxious to learn what this process is about, and we don't make the effort to
educate them by printing information that may help and guide them ?

Do we really want to have an Iraq that has people as stupid as we have become in our own country ?
That in itself is a death sentence to their hopes of a future Democratic society.

 

[IGBT]

Worthwhile facts not generally seen in the news...

The following is an email message sent to all First Marine Air Wing
and
Marine
Wing Support Squadron 171 from Lt Col Scot S. Seitz, Commanding
Officer, on
Monday 1 Dec 03.

Marines and Sailors,

As we approach the end of the year, I think it is important to
share a
few thoughts about what you've accomplished directly, in some cases,
and
indirectly in many others. I am speaking about what the Bush
Administration and each of
you has contributed by wearing the uniform, because the fact that
you
wear the uniform contributes 100% to the capability of the nation to
send a few onto the field to execute national policy. As you read
about these
achievements you are a part of, I would call your attention to 2
things
:

1. This is good news that "hasn't been fit" to print or
report on TV.

2. It is much easier to point out the errors a man makes when he
makes the tough decisions, rarely is the positive as aggressively
pursued.


Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1 :

a) the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is
on
active duty.

b) over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow
citizens.

c) nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts are functioning.

d) the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

e) on Monday 6 Oct, power generation hit 4,518 megawatts =
exceeding
the prewar
average.

f) all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges
are
open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

g) by 1 Oct, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over 1,500 schools
500
more than scheduled.

h) teachers earn 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

i) all 240 hospitals and more than 1,200 clinics are open.

j) doctors salaries are at least 8x what they were under Saddam .

k) pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing
to 700
tons in May, to a current total of 12,000 tons.

l) the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million
vaccinations to
Iraq's children.

m) a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 km of Iraq's
27,000 km
of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of
farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi
men and women.

n) we have restored over 75% of prewar telephone services
and over 67% of the potable water production.

o) there are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect
50,000 by year-end.

p) the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite
dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major
cities and towns.

q) 95% of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time
customers are opening accounts daily.

r) Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses.

s) the central bank is fully independent.

t) Iraq has one of the world's most growth-oriented investment and
banking laws.

u) Iraq has a single, unified currency for the 1st time in 15
years.

v) satellite TV dishes are legal.

w) foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and
extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for
"minders" and other
government spies.

x) there is no Ministry of Information.

y) there are more than 170 newspapers.

z) you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street
corner.

aa) foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and
go.

ab) a nation that had not one single element-legislative,
judicial or
executive-of a representative government, now does.

ac) in Baghdad alone, residents have selected 88 advisory
councils. Baghdad's first democratic transfer o f power in 35 years
happened when the city council elected its new chairman.

ad) today in Iraq, chambers of commerce, business, school and
professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the
country.

ae) 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing
body in
Iraq's history, run the day-to-day business of government.

af) the Iraqi government regularly participates in international
events. Since July, the Iraqi government has been represented in
over two dozen international
meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab
League,
the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference
Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is
reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the
world.

ag) Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren't.

ah) for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of
Shiites
celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam.

ai) the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction
projects,
large and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of
Iraq.

aj) Uday and Qusay are dead ; and no longer feeding innocent
Iraqis to
the zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force
cooperation,torturing Iraq's soccer players for losing games, or
murdering critics.

ak) children aren't imprisoned or murdered when their parents
disagree
with them

al) political opponents aren't imprisoned, tortured, executed,
maimed,
or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam.
am) millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual
terror.

an) Saudis will hold municipal elections.

ao) Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents.

ap) Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an
Iranian
- aMuslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for
democracy and for peace.

Saddam is gone.

Iraq is free.
President Bush has not faltered or failed.

Yet, little or none of this information has been published by
the
Press corps that prides itself on bringing you all the news that's
important.

Iraq, under US-led control, has come further in 6 months than
Germany did in 7 years or Japan did in 9 years following WWII.
Military
deaths from fanatic
Nazi's and Japanese numbered in the thousands and continued for
over 3
years after WWII victory was declared.


It took the US over 4 months to clear away the twin tower debris,
and
substantially longer to even decide what to put up in it's place, let
alone attempt to start building something else...


Now, take into account that almost every Democrat leader in the
House
and Senate has fought President Bush on every aspect of his handling
of
this country's war and the post-war reconstruction, and that they
continue to claim on a daily basis on national TV that this conflict
has
been a failure.

Taking everything into consideration, even the unfortunate loss
of our
brothers and sisters in this conflict, do you think anyone else in the
world could have accomplished as much as the United States and the
Bush
administration in so
short a period of time...?

These are things worth writing about. Get the word out. Write
to someone you think may be able to influence our Congress or the
press
to tell the story.


Above all, be proud that you are a part of this historical
precedent.

God bless you all.

Have a great Holiday.

Semper Fidelis,

Lt Col Scot S Seitz

 

[CaptnKirk]

Spin machine writing again - rehashing several previous 'Letters'
that are putting the same style into play.

You will see it again every 30 days or so, with a different 'Alledged' author.

This is about the 8th one in the last 12 months.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Spin machine writing again - rehashing several previous 'Letters'
that are putting the same style into play.

You will see it again every 30 days or so, with a different 'Alledged' author.

This is about the 8th one in the last 12 months.

Care to disprove any of the metrics presented in it? Ought to be easy if it is a fabrication...

 

[Czar]

About that letter, I tried to google some of the sentences and all it came up with were usualy blogs or posts on various forums, and the format of the letter was also usualy very different.

any official sources for the information there? like news articles, governmental declerations or something alike?

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: Witling
Speaking of, "I wonder where the evidence is." as Shad0wHawk wrote, Shad, where's the evidence for your assertions?

so your point is others do not have to prove their assertions but for some reason i do?



LOL! riiigggghhhttt.

here ya go anyway.

before the war

after the war

on the second link there are lots of good articles at the bottom

also note medical care is available to EVERYONE now, baath socialist party members and supporters are no longer givin priority

now lets some evidence we are actually losing in iraq other than opinion pieces.

as far as may iraqi's not knowing what is in the constitution, i am sure they will in time, after all it has only been ONE DAY.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Metrics ? What do you think are metrics ? Ambiguous presentation without backup data ?

I won't waste my time, I know what metrics are and how they should be presented,
and it's not in a partisan letter to the world.

Powell used metrics in front of the U.N. to present a War Diplomacy.
False metrics, but metrics - non the less.

 

[dirtboy]

While the Iraq situation was a lose-lose, regardless of what we did... I always believe that the best in people will come out, so I'm optomistic. Hanging around this forum long enough will eventually change that view, since everyone here seeks to find the worst in everyone.