Iraq, Afghan death tolls at lowest in 2008
- Thread starter RichardE
- Start date
can there at least be some happiness that things are going in the right direction. Bush went ahead and started this retarded war, and now that is history, lets at least be happy its getting better and not worse so at some point we can start pulling people out and spending less money over Bushes retarded mistakes...
I can't think of how anyone could see less American deaths as anything but a good thing.
WOW, that's just sad IMO that you would rather focus on a historical mistake then try to improve the future. I am literally taken aback by your post.
You're retarded. The guy even acknowledged it was a retarded war and caused by Bush's retarded mistakes. I think being retarded is a problem and I think making retarded mistakes is a problem, so I think he acknowledged that there is a problem. I don't think you comprehended that (they say your actions are words are a reflection on yourself), which is why he, and I are taken back by your responses. You're really not paying attention to what you are reading and just spouting negative bs because you are probably so hell bent on the Iraq war being disaster so you can tell yourself you are right for hating Bush. Since I actually read his response and thought about it, I think he explicity said and did what you are accusing him of not doing (actually, I think the bulk of his response was just what you said he didnt do), which leads me to believe you are either a text book troll or really lacking the brain power to analyze and assess the text in front of you, which has prevented you from making a respectable response and have us thinking you're not all there in the head.
Granted, I don't know you, have never looked up other posts to see what your track record is here, so maybe you are just drunk or high and not really thinking things through.
Either way, keep hating on Bush. You probably hate yourself and use Bush as your subconcious scapegoat because you need an easy target to focus the hate you have in your head on.
Sorry if that was harsh truth for you to swallow, but I'm just pointing out the problem in your attitude so you can recognize it, and maybe avoid making the mistake of posting a retarded response again. I'm just following your advice.
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I hung out last night with two guys that are going to Afghanistan. I have friends in Iraq.
I'm absolutely fucking thrilled that the deaths are low like this. Hearing this news is almost cause for me to call some people and go out for drinks and celebrate. Maybe I should invite sandorski out for a drink to celebrate the good, positive news! I'm sure he wants to celebrate the huge and clear progress we are making and the fact that less and less people are dying.
No.... a nation of some millions of people should have been left to live in fear and never have the right to vote for "change" like so many of us just did....
I can't speak for anyone else here, but I opposed the war in Iraq for the very second I heard that Bush was considering (which honestly blew my mind at the time) it to this very second I am typing this. Also I voted for Kerry. But, assigning blame doesn't make the lives of our troops any easier, and so far as blame goes, the American people already voted all these people out of office, and they have like 20% approval ratings so what more do you want? But Looking at blame now instead of finding a solution is silly. It would be like going to the Arab-Israeli conflict and deciding if it was really Britain who was responsible when they created Israel, or maybe France for the Crusades, or the Ottomon empire, or maybe Abraham and the jews in the bible days for invading the region in the fist place? Well, that might be a great argument for a history class, but it doesn't help us solve the problem as it exists today..
The world as it exists today had the USA occupying Iraq, and any descision has to be made based on that reality, not what could have been. Its sort of like in economics where SUNK COSTS are not included in and decision. All the lives and money wasted in Iraq are a SUNK COST that can NEVER be recovered, all we can hope to do now is cut our additional losses.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,825
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Considering we are not discussing Resolutions here to start with, half this post is a Strawman. It's nice that things are improving, but being pissed off that there's a situation to be improved(excepting Afghanistan) is a valid point to the discussion. It is a moot accomplishment, good or not.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
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Good news but what a counterproductive waste this has been. "hearts and minds" are hardened especially the 2 million refugees and 100,000 killed family- blow back will happen. Christians/Druze and other religious minorities have been decimated. Liqueur, barber shops, discos and other infidel vises have been closed down. Gays, women, professors and free thinkers are discriminated against or worse. Sharia is part of the constitution. Basically GW created a Fundi Islamic Republic from which there was none.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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The illusion here is that Iraq is stable because it was stable yesterday. All that has happened is that the very factions and insurgencies no longer do as much ethnic cleansing, they loot the Iraqi government instead.
But no political progress has occurred and the whole place could blow up at any time.
I am not trying to be optimistic or pessimistic, I am just stating if one major faction starting fighting, all are likely to follow. And until political stability is built, the potential of an Iraqi civil war is always there, from within and without.
But no political progress has occurred and the whole place could blow up at any time.
I am not trying to be optimistic or pessimistic, I am just stating if one major faction starting fighting, all are likely to follow. And until political stability is built, the potential of an Iraqi civil war is always there, from within and without.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
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Indeed ....I am pessimistic there will be a 'settling of accounts' once Americans leave. No way will Sunni ever live under Shi'a 'dogs'
just today..
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01...dleeast/05iraq.html?hp
just today..
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01...dleeast/05iraq.html?hp
http://www.american-pictures.c...llery/usa/book230t.htm
There is also illusion that outside of St. louis, aka East St. Louis, or even North City St. Louis, is stable, because it's stable today. There's alot of fighting and violence there too. But it's down. I grew up right outside of East St. Louis, which really does fucking look like a god damn war zone, in a town that borders ESTL, that was called the "most racist town in america" by 60 minutes (they had a whole episode devoted to how fucked up the "border" between estl and belleville is) due to the mix of bottom of the barrel poverty (relative to other us cities) with a mostly wealthy german settlement. It's almost like Isreal/Gaza.
There are notable periods of racial outbursts here, especially on the belleville/east st. louis border. Gang bangers are notorious for "crossing the border" into belleville, wrecking shit, raping and killing, fucking with white judges, etc. Not that this doesn't happen other places, but I grew up in the middle of it. Almost all of ESTL's government is corrupt, on the take, squandering public funds, etc. I've even personally sued an ESTL police officer for being corrupt and trying to extort me.
And yes, there are tit for tat responses from Belleville. And sometimes they are more pyschotic than the gang violence that caused the response. That is part of why I've oftened jokes about a US occupation of East St. Louis! I'd love to see hummers and tanks rolling around down there. It might be a crazy response, but i'd rather see one big over the top crazy response that would completely rebuild the area and cleanse it, then have another 100 years of under the table conflict. Seriously, we have "periods" of racial wars here. It's been corrupt enough that eSTL actually lost its city hall, and the state of illinois had to come in and take the city over at one point. They are about to do it again.
Can we maybe get some political progress here too? Iraq isn't the only place struggling. Ever since they opened up metro link that directly connects the heart of estl to the heart of belleville, racial tensions have been absurdly high, because violence is up. What if they put a light rail train connecting gaza and isreal? As soon as metro link opened up, violence and crime spiked in belleville and 95% of arrests where of estl citizens. They live in slums, and belleville is just a train ride away. they ride up there, steal a purse, walk the streets begging for food, then take the last train ride fo the night home.
My point is, no place where there is such a divide will ever see total peace, harmony, or become a model of democratic function. I think we should look at the overal death count going down, with the opportunity to at least turn over more and more control to the Iraqis as a good thing. We still discuss the problems going forward (aka how fragile the situation is, etc.) but still make a positive associate and RECOGNIZE that things are seemingly looking up.
Like I said, the ESTL governement is corrupt like all hell, but they are all black, and the community is 99.9% black, so at least they are doing it to themselves. At least now, the Iraqis can cause problems for themselves, where as before, Saddam was the cause. The iraqies have at least put in place the functions to make things better and over time make things nice for themselves. It could take 50 years, but at least the door is unlocked for them now.
And I'm sure the race vs religion argument could be brought up, I'm just using it as an example of "something" that caused a divide that doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon.
Edit.. interestint links about people debating belleville vs east stl.
http://www.topix.com/forum/cit...e-il/TK3HB6A078DKPSKTK
http://www.topix.com/forum/cit...e-il/TVGEHBI5P4RAMT0KG
http://www.pbase.com/cincyimages/east_st_louis_illinois
ESTL PICS
http://www.pbase.com/cincyimages/image/46679824
http://www.pbase.com/cincyimages/image/46679815
x3, just goes to show how wrong sandorski was in his response to browntown. He railed on someone who is probably more aligned with his own stance than most other people on the board.
Originally posted by: sandorski
Quite possibly. I'm in a bad mood, got the post holiday blues!!:laugh:
That said, when it comes to Iraq, the only real "good" news will be when the troops are home.
Sad thing is, most of my friends in Iraq think as soon as they have a chance to go home, they are instead goin to Afghanistan which they think might be worse. I talked to two guys the other night that are going to Afghanistan, and have been to Iraq. They expect to do more fighting in Afghanistan.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read Iraq was at the lowest and Afghanistan was at the highest.. combining them is a bit misleading.
I just want to take this moment and say:
See Aimster, I was right when I said what would happen if I ever posted a good news thread :beer:
See Aimster, I was right when I said what would happen if I ever posted a good news thread
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