Iraq 6-3-07:14 U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Citrix
I dont belive anybodys number both numbers are suspect, neither side has any proof.

Well it's a 2 to 1 margin in the poll above leaning towards the higher number but yet you lean towards the lower number.
Dave this forum is way to the left of most of America, so any poll on it is really worthless.

Really??? You have proof of this?
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
12,258
9,079
136
I'd like to see that proof. Considering recent polls show ~35% approval ratings for the chimp in chief.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Originally posted by: Citrix
i dont belive it and even if it was true (which would be bad) how many of those deaths were caused by the US,

All of them were caused by the U.S., blame who you want, Clinton, Dems,Saddam, etc
But it's all American ( maybe a little British too )

We do know that the Lancet is a very prestigious publication and has earned that respect
We also know we can't trust any U.S. mil numbers or Iraqi gov numbers

BAGHDAD, March 8 -- Days after the bombing of a Shiite shrine unleashed a wave of retaliatory killings of Sunnis, the leading Shiite party in Iraq's governing coalition directed the Health Ministry to stop tabulating execution-style shootings, according to a ministry official familiar with the recording of deaths.

The official, who spoke on the condition that he not be named because he feared for his safety, said a representative of the Shiite party, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, ordered that government hospitals and morgues catalogue deaths caused by bombings or clashes with insurgents, but not by execution-style shootings.
Official Says Shiite Party Suppressed Body Count

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
A Letter from Michael Moore

Friends,

Tomorrow marks the day that we will have been in Iraq longer than we
Were in all of World War II.

That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini,
And the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the
world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to
Downtown B aghdad .

And we haven't even done THAT. After 1,347 days, in the same time it
Took us to took us to sweep across North Africa, storm the beaches of
Italy, conquer the South Pacific, and liberate all of Western Europe,
We cannot, after over 3 and 1/2 years, even take over a single
Highway and protect ourselves from a homemade device of two tin cans
Placed in a pothole. No wonder the cab fare from the airport into
B aghdad is now running around $35,000 for the 25-minute ride. And
That doesn't even include a friggin' helmet.

Is this utter failure the fault of our troops? Hardly. That's because
No amount of troops or choppers or democracy shot out of the barrel
Of a gun is ever going to "win" the war in Iraq . It is a lost war,
Lost because it never had a right to be won, lost because it was
Started by men who have never been to war, men who hide behind others
Sent to fight and die.

Let's listen to what the Iraqi people are saying, according to a
Recent poll conducted by the University of Maryland :

** 71% of all Iraqis now want the U.S. Out of Iraq .

** 61% of all Iraqis SUPPORT insurgent attacks on U.S. Troops.

Yes, the vast majority of Iraqi citizens believe that our soldiers
Should be killed and maimed! So what the hell are we still doing
There? Talk about not getting the hint.

There are many ways to liberate a country. Usually the residents of
That country rise up and liberate themselves. That's how we did it.
You can also do it through nonviolent, mass civil disobedience.
That's how India did it. You can get the world to boycott a regime
Until they are so ostracized they capitulate. That's how South Africa
Did it. Or you can just wait them out and, sooner or later, the
King's' legions simply leave (sometimes just because they're too
Cold). That's how Canada did it.

The one way that DOESN'T work is to invade a country and tell the
People, "We are here to liberate you!" -- when they have done NOTHING
To liberate themselves. Where were all the suicide bombers when
Saddam was oppressing them? Where were the insurgents planting bombs
Along the roadside as the evildoer Saddam's convoy passed them by? I
Guess ol' Saddam was a cruel despot -- but not cruel enough for
Thousands to risk their necks. "Oh no, Mike, they couldn't do that!
Saddam would have had them killed!" Really? You don't think King
George had any of the colonial insurgents killed? You don't think
Patrick Henry or Tom Paine were afraid? That didn't stop them. When
Tens of thousands aren't willing to shed their own blood to remove a
Dictator, that should be the first clue that they aren't going to be
Willing participants when you decide you're going to do the
Liberating for them.

A country can HELP another people overthrow a tyrant (that's what the
French did for us in our revolution), but after you help them, you
Leave. Immediately. The French didn't stay and tell us how to set up
Our government. They didn't say, "we're not leaving because we want
Your natural resources." They left us to our own devices and it took
Us six years before we had an election. And then we had a bloody
Civil war. That's what happens, and history is full of these
Examples. The French didn't say, "Oh, we better stay in America ,
Otherwise they're going to kill each other over that slavery issue!"

The only way a war of liberation has a chance of succeeding is if the
Oppressed people being liberated have their own citizens behind them
-- and a group of Washingtons, Jeffersons, Franklins, Ghandis and
Mandellas leading them. Where are these beacons of liberty in Iraq ?
This is a joke and it's been a joke since the beginning. Yes, the
Joke's' been on us, but with 655,000 Iraqis now dead as a result of
Our invasion (source: Johns Hopkins University ), I guess the cruel
Joke is on them. At least they've been liberated, permanently.

So I don't want to hear another word about sending more troops (wake
Up, America , John McCain is bonkers), or "redeploying" them, or
Waiting four months to begin the "phase-out." There is only one
solution and it is this: Leave. Now. Start tonight. Get out of there
as fast as we can. As much as people of good heart and conscience
don't want to believe this, as much as it kills us to accept defeat,
there is nothing we can do to undo the damage we have done. What's
happened has happened. If you were to drive drunk down the road and
you killed a child, there would be nothing you could do to bring that
child back to life. If you invade and destroy a country, plunging it
into a civil war, there isn't much you can do 'til the smoke settles
and blood is mopped up. Then maybe you can atone for the atrocity you
have committed and help the living come back to a better life.

The Soviet Union got out of Afghanistan in 36 weeks. They did so and
suffered hardly any losses as they left. They realized the mistake
they had made and removed their troops. A civil war ensued. The bad
guys won. Later, we overthrew the bad guys and everybody lived
happily ever after. See! It all works out in the end!

The responsibility to end this war now falls upon the Democrats.
Congress controls the purse strings and the Constitution says only
Congress can declare war. Mr. Reid and Ms. Pelosi now hold the power
to put an end to this madness. Failure to do so will bring the wrath
of the voters. We aren't kidding around, Democrats, and if you don't
believe us, just go ahead and continue this war another month. We
will fight you harder than we did the Republicans. The opening page
of my website has a photo of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, each made
up by a collage of photos of the American soldiers who have died in
B ush's War. B ut it is now about to become the B ush/Democratic Party
War unless swift action is taken.

This is what we demand:

1. B ring the troops home now. Not six months from now. NOW. Quit
looking for a way to win. We can't win. We've lost. Sometimes you
lose. This is one of those times. B e brave and admit it.

2. Apologize to our soldiers and make amends. Tell them we are sorry
they were used to fight a war that had NOTHING to do with our
national security. We must commit to taking care of them so that they
suffer as little as possible. The mentally and physically maimed must
get the best care and significant financial compensation. The
families of the deceased deserve the biggest apology and they must be
taken care of for the rest of their lives.

3. We must atone for the atrocity we have perpetuated on the people
of Iraq . There are few evils worse than waging a war based on a lie,
invading another country because you want what they have buried under
the ground. Now many more will die. Their blood is on our hands,
regardless for whom we voted. If you pay taxes, you have contributed
to the three billion dollars a week now being spent to drive Iraq
into the hellhole it's become. When the civil war is over, we will
have to help rebuild Iraq . We can receive no redemption until we have
atoned.

In closing, there is one final thing I know. We Americans are better
than what has been done in our name. A majority of us were upset and
angry after 9/11 and we lost our minds. We didn't think straight and
we never looked at a map. B ecause we are kept stupid through our
pathetic education system and our lazy media, we knew nothing of
history. We didn't know that WE were the ones funding and arming
Saddam for many years, including those when he massacred the Kurds.
He was our guy. We didn't know what a Sunni or a Shiite was, never
even heard the words. Eighty percent of our young adults (according
to National Geographic) were not able to find Iraq on the map. Our
leaders played off our stupidity, manipulated us with lies, and
scared us to death.

B ut at our core we are a good people. We may be slow learners, but
that "Mission Accomplished" banner struck us as odd, and soon we
began to ask some questions. Then we began to get smart. B y this past
November 7th, we got mad and tried to right our wrongs. The majority
now know the truth. The majority now feel a deep sadness and guilt
and a hope that somehow we can make make it all right again.

Unfortunately, we can't. So we will accept the consequences of our
actions and do our best to be there should the Iraqi people ever dare
to seek our help in the future. We ask for their forgiveness.

We demand the Democrats listen to us and get out of Iraq now.

Yours,

Michael Moore
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Even if people are against the war, why should anybody care what that blowhard opportunist Moore has to say?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
It's advisable to actually read your own links before posting them, Genx87. From iraqbodycount-

"Substantially more deaths have occurred than have been recorded so far, but their number still remains highly uncertain."

In other words, they admit that their count is a bare minimum figure. I suspect it's like the tip of an iceberg, with the majority of it being below the surface. Yeh, the 600K figure is probably too high, but splitting the difference and then lowballing the estimate would likely be a very safe bet. 200-300K dead iraqis is an entirely reasonable estimate, that number grows continuously, and is accelerating.

It's what happens when the power relationships in a diverse and divided authoritarian society are destroyed, replaced with nothing other than promises. Various factions attempt to fill the power vacuum with their own version of order, particularly when they've been allowed access to a variety of weaponry by careless invaders, denied employment, and the distribution system for basic necessities swept aside...

There's also indications that the US is backing death squads of the Iraqi Shiite Interior Ministry- various members of the Bush team have referred to such as the "Salvador option"... rather openly.

Not that it worked in El Salvador, or that it'll work in Iraq, but it does keep those tax dollars flowing into the coffers of selected military suppliers...

First create chaos, then point out that you can't leave because of the chaos, profit continuously...
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
What a way to start the new year.

Way to go on the phoney war.

1-1-07Toll for Americans in Iraq hits 3,000

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The U.S. military announced Sunday the deaths of two soldiers, raising the number of Americans who have died in the Iraq war to at least 3,000, a somber milestone in the 46-month-old conflict.

Bush said in the statement wishing Americans a happy new year.

"In the New Year, we will remain on the offensive against the enemies of freedom, advance the security of our country, and work toward a free and unified Iraq. Defeating terrorists and extremists is the challenge of our time, and we will answer history's call with confidence and fight for liberty without wavering."
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
"In the New Year, we will remain on the offensive against the enemies of freedom

Seems to me they're fighting for their own freedom from being occupied by a foreign power, making the US the 'enemy of (their) freedom'.

advance the security of our country

Reports show the war causing an increase in terrorism, not a decrease. The damage to our military, to our wealth as we spiral further into debt unable to pay for other things we need, and to our international reputation where we lose the cooperation of other nations is not advancing our security, which faces no threat from Iraqi insurgents.

and work toward a free and unified Iraq.

By the year what again? Are we getting there this way, or would we get there better not occupying their nation?

Defeating terrorists and extremists is the challenge of our time

I'd say not becoming and causing terrorists and extremists is the more important challenge, as we deal with the 'empire' agenda trying to lie to the American people about it.

There are different kinds of 'terrorists'. The guys who blew up black churches and killed four young black girls in the 1960 era were terrorists who were defending wrong and hurting others for evil purpose, to protect their own unfair advantages. When a country is occupied by a foreign power, a different kind of 'terrorist' is created.

Can you imagine a guy so arrogant he thinks he cannot commit rape because any woman would not see his action as unwelcome - that's sort of how some Americans seem to think of the US, that we're so damned attractive that any nation would be happy to be occupied by us and our nice intentions to help, so we can't be a criminal occupier.

and we will answer history's call with confidence and fight for liberty without wavering."

And Bush continues his war on the words by demeaning them that our nation stands for - just as LBJ called the tyrant Diem who oppressed buddhists "the Winstone Churchill of Southeast Asia", or Reagan called the ex-state thugs and criminals making up contra terrorists "the moral equivalent of our founding fathers".

There's a place for phrases like "history's call", and there's a place where using them is simply the worst sort of lying, propaganda, distortion. Note the subtlety, for eample, of how he makes his war of aggression look defensive as if the phone rang and he just answered 'history's call' rather than being the initiator of unnecessary war. Note how he begs the question with the same phrase as if history had made the call (it'd be a wrong number) - history's call sounds so poetic and has such a history of being the type of phrase to describe important, well-approved events, that it encourages people to see the war as such an event rather than recalling its real history and seeing the real situation, much less notice how much better the insurgents can use the same language to describe their struggle, you can see the exact same words coming from the insurgency, and more accurately:

and we (Iraqi insurgents defending our nation from foreign occupation) will answer history's call with confidence and fight for liberty without wavering."
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
much less notice how much better the insurgents can use the same language to describe their struggle, you can see the exact same words coming from the insurgency, and more accurately:

Yeah... those Syrians and other foreign fighters are really struggling for Iraq's freedom.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: jrenz
much less notice how much better the insurgents can use the same language to describe their struggle, you can see the exact same words coming from the insurgency, and more accurately:

Yeah... those Syrians and other foreign fighters are really struggling for Iraq's freedom.

Anybody who's been paying attention knows that the foreign fighters are no longer the big problem in Iraq...While they might have started things off, we're well into civil war problems now.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Anybody who's been paying attention knows that the foreign fighters are no longer the big problem in Iraq...While they might have started things off, we're well into civil war problems now.
What about the reports of the Iranians we picked up?
They may not be there in mass numbers but it seems there is evidence that the Iranians and Syrians are both providing support to the anti-Iraq government forces.

It may not be the same as a 1000 Saudi?s or Chechen?s fighting against us, but the results are the same.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
1-20-2007 20 U.S. service members killed in Iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq - At least 20 American service members were killed in military operations Saturday in the deadliest day for U.S. forces in two years

Saturday's toll was the third-highest of any single day since the war began in March 2003, eclipsed only by 37 U.S. deaths on Jan. 26, 2005, and 28 on the third day of the U.S. invasion.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
I've always wondered why anyone's approval rating of the President even matters in this debate...but anyways...

I had a 4 hour layover in Chicago last Friday returning from a trip I took. I talked for a couple hours to a soldier, US Army, who was returning home from Afghanistan, and had some pretty interesting things to say. He remarked how stable it is compared to when we first arrived there, and that troops are being sent home as a result. He said sure there are still a few hotspots for trouble, but isnt there always in every country? He said he can only speak for his unit, but they talk alot about how lop sided the news is, saying it was frustrating for him and his unit to never see any positive or good news being reported. It was pretty interesting to get opinions from someone who was actually there instead of a bunch of armchair generals on a message board...

My personal opinion is sure, we have done a few things wrong, but not completely. People seem to forget we have either captured or killed 78 of the top 100 "terrorists" in the last 4 years. How the hell is this bad?

People also forget how long it takes to actually help rebuild a country. Anyone remember Japan? How many decades did that take? Or Vietnam? Jeez poeple how can you expect an undertaking like that to happen in a couple years?

Anyway. I guess I'll wait for the flames? Hmm?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
People also forget how long it takes to actually help rebuild a country. Anyone remember Japan? How many decades did that take? Or Vietnam? Jeez poeple how can you expect an undertaking like that to happen in a couple years?

Anyway. I guess I'll wait for the flames? Hmm?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No need for flames---but you sure cite some poor examples---in Japan we had better US leadership.
By the time a decade was out we were importing Japanese goods. And Vietnam all we did was screw things up---and all progress has been since we left. What you did not cite is the British were in Iraq for over a decade and a half post WW1--and did then--what we are doing now--and post WW1 Iraq--as in our Vietnamese experience---all progress only occurred after the Brits got out.

Winning a war and winning the peace are two very different things. And the latter takes far wiser leadership by the occupying power(s).
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Look how well the annexation is going, it brought "Hanoi Jane" back out of the woodwork.

1-27-2007 Tens of thousands in D.C. protest war

Protesters energized by fresh congressional skepticism about the Iraq war demanded a withdrawal of U.S. troops in a demonstration Saturday that drew tens of thousands and brought Jane Fonda back to the streets.

Fonda was a lightning rod in the Vietnam era for her outspoken opposition to that war, earning the derisive nickname "Hanoi Jane" from conservatives for traveling to North Vietnam during the height of that conflict 35 years ago. She had avoided anti-Iraq war appearances until now.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Are we winning yet George?

2-17-2007Mideast tensions started by U.S. prompt Gulf nations to buy weapons

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - Deep fears about the war in Iraq and growing tension between the United States and Iran are driving the wealthy oil states of the Persian Gulf to go on shopping sprees for helicopters, ships and tanks, officials say.

The biggest fear in the region is that Iraq will collapse into civil war and its violence will spill into nearby Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates, Alani said.

Those countries want to protect critical sites such as oil installations, ports ? and U.S. military bases that house tens of thousands of American troops. Of those five nations, only Saudi Arabia has no American bases.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
When did Spitzer move from Attorney General to the Governor?

2-21-2007 N.Y. governor signs off on Freedom Tower

A booming commercial real estate market and the need to move forward with rebuilding at ground zero changed Gov. Eliot Spitzer's mind about supporting the continued construction of the 1,776-foot Freedom Tower.

The base "speaks less of resilience and tolerance than of paranoia. It's a building armored against an outside world that we no longer trust," wrote New York Times architecture critic Nicolai Ouroussoff in a column on Monday, urging that the building be redesigned.

Spitzer called the design a compromise "between the security needs that are real and pure aesthetics."

"I don't think it will look like a fortress," Bloomberg said. "There's nothing wrong with taking appropriate security actions."

 

kedlav

Senior member
Aug 2, 2006
632
0
0
Should've rebuilt with at least the same exact exterior as the old ones, and on completion date hung a giant white sheet with a red middle finger on the walls. Who gives a damn about these BS ways of 'paying tribute' by building 1776 feet. There's many a better way to show national pride than a 1776 foot tall bldg.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Wow, we now have 140,000 troops in Iraq :shocked:

3-10-2007 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070310/us_nm/iraq_usa_bush_dc

U.S. military commanders in Iraq have said in recent days that the number of additional U.S. troops needed to carry out Bush's security plan for Iraq could approach 30,000, taking into account units needed to support the 21,500 extra combat troops.

The United States now has some 140,000 troops in the country.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,899
7,428
136
so, looking back at how our troop levels were managed, it looks like rummy was the bottleneck toward putting more boots on the ground, because soon after he got yanked the idea of a "surge" got tabled and implemented.

i wonder if rummy were still in charge would we be seeing this increase in troop levels.

i also wonder how long before those leading the insurgency and the sectarian conflict will figure out how to effectively deal with this surge and counter it, leading to a surge in american deaths and maimings.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Last throes - Mission Accomplished:

3-14-2007 Pentagon says violence in Iraq "civil war" for the first time

WASHINGTON - The U.S. military for the first time Wednesday said in a new report that some of the violence in Iraq can be described as a civil war

Members of the Bush administration have been loath to say that the U.S. military is struggling to quell a civil war, and the report agreed that the term does not capture the complex situation there.

But it added, "Some elements of the situation in Iraq are properly descriptive of a 'civil war,' including the hardening of ethno-sectarian identities and mobilization, the changing character of the violence and population displacements."
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
3-17-2007 Thousands protest as war enters 5th year

WASHINGTON - Denouncing a conflict entering its fifth year, protesters across the country raised their voices Saturday against U.S. policy in Iraq and marched by the thousands to the Pentagon in the footsteps of an epic demonstration four decades ago against another divisive war.

counterprotest was staged, too, on a day of dueling signs and sentiments such as "Illegal Combat" and "Peace Through Strength," and songs like "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" and "War (What's It Good For?)."

Thousands crossed the Potomac River from the Lincoln Memorial to rally loudly but peacefully near the Pentagon.

Police on horseback and foot separated the two groups of demonstrators, who shouted at each other from opposite sides of Constitution Avenue in view of the Lincoln Memorial before the anti-war group marched. Barriers also kept them apart.

But war protester Susanne Shine of Boone, N.C., found herself in a crowd of counterdemonstrators, and came out in tears, with her sign in shreds. "They ripped up my peace sign," she said, after police escorted her, her husband and two adult daughters from the group. "It was really pretty scary for me."

Veterans lined up at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial and waved U.S, POW-MIA and military-unit flags. Not all were committed to the U.S. course in Iraq, however.

"I'm not sure I'm in support of the war," said William "Skip" Publicover of Charleston, S.C., who was a swift boat gunner in Vietnam and lost two friends whose names are etched on the memorial's wall.