DurocShark
Lifer
International Herald Tribune
We try to give them concessions and they thumb their collective noses at us and the UN.
We try to give them concessions and they thumb their collective noses at us and the UN.
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Iran resumes uranium enrichment
- Thread starter DurocShark
- Start date
DurocShark
Lifer
I know, but everybody gripes that we went into iraq without trying other things. This is what happens when we try. Despots laugh at us.
kage69
Lifer
No, I think everybody gripes when we go about the 'other things' in a blatantly wrong manner (in Iraq's case, cherry-picking intel and lying to the public). If by trying you're refering to labeling the country, publically, as evil - and then establishing a military presence around their borders as some kind of peacful initiative, then yes, the laughter might be warranted.
We have only ourselves to blame for this. Iran is no poster-child for peaceful international relations, but we stuck them in a corner and have continued to menace them, all the while complaining that they aren't accepting the olive branch which is conditional on them remaining vulnerable to us. If I was running the show in Tehran, I'd be resuming the program too.
kage69
Lifer
Who is saying we're to blame for what fanatical religious students did during a revolution? Maybe you missed where I noted Iran hasn't been the friendliest of nations. Regardless, that incident was part of the price we pay for supporting brutal, aristocratic dictators like the shah. If you're really searching for an incident to hold against the Iranians, the bombing of the Marine Barracks in Beirut of '82 would probably be more appropriate as it involved terrorism that resulted in death.
I used to work with a guy who was there for that bombing. He was in a machine gun post miles away when the detonation occured, and was almost immediately involved with the rescue/recovery effort. He lost 3 of his closest friends that day, and for the next week or so was up to his knees in rubble and the body parts of his fellow Marines. 🙁 Ever since he told me about it, it's always stuck in my head.
"We try to give them concessions and they thumb their collective noses at us and the UN."
The Bush Admin offers them nothing they don't already have, including the right to enrich uranium under supervision of the IAEA. Which is what they're doing... not that anything quite so simple can penetrate the agitprop addled brains of the Bush Faithful...
The Bush Admin offers them nothing they don't already have, including the right to enrich uranium under supervision of the IAEA. Which is what they're doing... not that anything quite so simple can penetrate the agitprop addled brains of the Bush Faithful...
DurocShark
Lifer
You're too focused. It's not just Bush or the US that's offering the concessions. It's the entire UN. That's where the problem is.
North Korea caved under concessions from the Clinton administration. Once those concessions started drying out, look what they started doing?
The kinds of things offered in these deals are huge to the nations they're offered to. Iran is seriously saying, "ah heck off, we'll do what we want without your bribes." And that's all well and good, they are a soverign nation after all. But the bulk of the PLANET wants them to stop. So the nations of the world will start saying, "Fine, do what you want. But we don't have to sell you wheat-medicine-machine tooling-whatever." Then Iran gets all butthurt and threatens its neighbors. Then the UN says, "Let's slap Iran around some." But nobody sends troops but us. Then the current administration, Republican or Democrat, gets blamed.
Did we jump the gun with Iraq? Yes. But it would have happened eventually anyway. So we all blame Bush for everything.
All that needs to happen for this future to never exist is for Iran to sit back and let us give them some welfare, some freebies, favored trading status, etc. Heck, we'll defend them against their neighbors if they just relax.
But it's all gotta be about penis size.
Sigh.
Nice string of conjecture, there, Duroc Shark, and a nice bit of revisionist history thrown in for good measure. The "concessions" offered to the DPRK were a ruse, a stalling tactic. The foundations for the promised reactors were only poured about the time that the project was supposed to be finished... The US welched on the deal, and everybody but the US public knows it. The Iranians are rightfully wary of making any deal with known welchers, particularly ones who advocate regime change in Iran...
As for the bulk of the planet wanting them to stop, that's more than a slight exaggeration. The Bush Admin wants them to stop, and apparently some of the Europeans do too. Beyond that, the Chinese and the Russians have merely agreed to the offering of a deal, not that they're opposed to the current Iranian efforts. It's extremely unlikely that any UN sanctions will ever be levied against Iran, so long as they keep the IAEA inspectors on-site. Which is pretty much as it should be. If the Iranians are in compliance with the treaties they've signed, neither the US or the Israelis would have any legitimate reason to attack.
And it really goes further than that. Remember this old saying- "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day; Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime." In the context of nuclear fuel enrichment, the Iranians already know how to fish... and teaching non nuclear nations that skill set was the carrot part of the NPT agreements in the first place...
As for the bulk of the planet wanting them to stop, that's more than a slight exaggeration. The Bush Admin wants them to stop, and apparently some of the Europeans do too. Beyond that, the Chinese and the Russians have merely agreed to the offering of a deal, not that they're opposed to the current Iranian efforts. It's extremely unlikely that any UN sanctions will ever be levied against Iran, so long as they keep the IAEA inspectors on-site. Which is pretty much as it should be. If the Iranians are in compliance with the treaties they've signed, neither the US or the Israelis would have any legitimate reason to attack.
And it really goes further than that. Remember this old saying- "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day; Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime." In the context of nuclear fuel enrichment, the Iranians already know how to fish... and teaching non nuclear nations that skill set was the carrot part of the NPT agreements in the first place...
boredhokie
Senior member
You sound like you know a lot about Iranian culture. I don't either, but I don't make the assumption of what would be an "easy life" for them. They're an oil producing nation and can stop shipments from most of the middle-east being sent to us in case of an invasion.
Who would be invading Iran anyways - a country of 70 million people? They're already scraping the bottom of the barrel for soldiers in Iraq.
And defending them against their neighbors might be thorny. Israel is their biggest enemy, who would we be defending in that case? Internal revolution is what Iran is afraid of.
kage69
Lifer
"NK caved under the concessions from the Clinton admin.."
"Did we jump the gun with Iraq? Yes. But it would have happened eventually anyway."
"Heck, we'll defend them against their neighbors if they just relax. "
"But it's all gotta be about penis size."
😕 I find your observations and speculation at complete odds with both history and common sense. The 'so we blame Bush for everthing' quip was just funny.
"Did we jump the gun with Iraq? Yes. But it would have happened eventually anyway."
"Heck, we'll defend them against their neighbors if they just relax. "
"But it's all gotta be about penis size."
😕 I find your observations and speculation at complete odds with both history and common sense. The 'so we blame Bush for everthing' quip was just funny.
DurocShark
Lifer
That and Israel are the two points even if every Iranian female lined up and gave Bush a BJ we still couldn't get involved in.
And my point of them relaxing wasn't to stop doing what they want to do. It's to not be so blatant about it. It's amazing what people will ignore if it isn't shoved in their faces.
India and Pakistan have nuclear programs. Did we saber-rattle? No. Because they did it in secret. Didn't make big productions about each step of the program. Didn't need to wag their penises in everybody's faces. And they as nations have both been completely reasonable about controls... After the fact. 😉
So they've been quietly accepted into the nuclear powers club with only a few shouts in the night.