IPS glow seen by a former TN owner

[soska66]

Hi guys

Trying to get myself a new monitor and I've been doing a research for many days now. My PC usage is 80% games (non competitive, mainly single player) and 20% internet/work. I narrowed my search down to either an IPS (Dell P2414H) or one of the standard gaming 60Hz TN's in 200-300 quid range (eg BenQ RL2455HM)

Now, my main problem with IPS is I'm extremely concerned (scared even) of amount of glow that could possible take all the pleasure from using this screen (or even become annoying). Like I mentioned, I do play games a lot and I do like atmospheric or horror games with plenty of black color on screen. I'm used to what I have in terms of blacks on my current TN and I'd at least like to have the same. not worse.

I own an IPS TV from Phillips and I can definitely see the glow when watching a movie in a dark room (I'm yet to do a proper gaming test tho). The experience is of course slightly different as a) it is a different screen (brand, model), b) I watch from a bigger distance than I would a PC monitor.

I think my main question here is then directed to all gamers who had a TN screen not that long time ago (so they can still remember ) and do play a lot of atmospheric games in a dark room. Can you tell your experience with the glow after switching to IPS panel? Is it annoying? Do you even notice it?

 

[lehtv]

Don't pay £200-300 for a 60hz TN. You can get 120hz TN for that price, which isn't a bad idea even for single player games, as long as they are relatively fast paced. However it does sound like IPS the way to go for you.

I'm not sure what this glow is and why you think it might be an issue with a quality monitor. It's most likely something specific to your Philips monitor, although it'd be nice to have a photo of that because I'm not sure what you mean by 'glow'. IPS typically reproduces blacks better than TN (color accuracy in general is better), making it the ideal choice for horror games.

What's prompting you to upgrade from your TN monitor?

 

[soska66]

here's an example video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfAsCMMkAKA

Or this thread http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18561225

That's why I'm looking for an opinion from someone who actually did change from TN to IPS, does play atmospheric games and can say either 'yes, glow is an issue' or 'nah, it isn't'. That would be of course the shortest answer

As to what's prompting me to upgrade - short answer here is that my current TN is dying

PS: I eliminated 120hz as an option - my rig isn't that powerful to run every game at 120fps. I don't want me perception of games like Crysis or Metro in 55-60fps suffer fromt he fact that I've just finished Borderlands or Bioshock in 120fps

 

[lehtv]

Oh, you mean backlight bleed? . It will vary a lot between monitors, regardless of panel type. Someone telling you "I had a TN, bought IPS, and backlight bleed was worse" - that just isn't useful information without knowing the exact model of each monitor.

Backlight bleed is investigated in monitor reviews and you can also google images of specific models. I don't have an answer to which monitor would have the least backlight bleed in your price range, perhaps someone else will chime in.

PS: I eliminated 120hz as an option - my rig isn't that powerful to run every game at 120fps.

You don't have to be able to run games at 120 fps to benefit from 120hz. You can disable Vsync and you won't have to worry about screen tearing, no matter what framerate you have; and framerates below 60 will stutter less without Vsync. 120hz will also appear smoother at 60 fps than a comparable 60 hz monitor. At 80-90 fps the difference is already very noticeable, but of course 120 fps is optimal.

I don't want me perception of games like Crysis or Metro in 55-60fps suffer fromt he fact that I've just finished Borderlands or Bioshock in 120fps

That's just a non-issue from my experience. I play some games locked to 60 fps (because they don't support 120hz), others locked to 120 fps, and it's never even crossed my mind that my 60 fps experience might be suffering because of being used to 120 fps in other games. No... the experience is the same as it would be if all games were run at 60 fps.

 

[redzo]

If you ask me, tn color shifting is hundreds of times more annoying than ips or pls glow.
Color shifting makes watching anything from only a short distance troublesome.

Tn's only advantage is the high refresh rates. If you can live with the standard refresh rate of 60hz you should go for the dell without looking back.
Also, you should know that you WILL notice the glow effect. However, as I was saying, for me is way better than the color shifting nature of tn screens.

 

[Piroko]

Switched from a Samsung 22" TN panel to a Dell 27" IPS panel. My impressions:

Viewing from the front IPS definitely has some pixel glow in the corners which is visible, but not particularly bright or distracting. Not much more than the color distortion of that particular TN panel. Even in a pitch black room (which I tend to avoid, as both screens are too bright overall) I wouldn't give the TN a recommendation. Also, that TN panel seems to be 6 Bit per color, dark gradients have very noticeable steps on it which aren't visible on the IPS panel.

When I'm looking from an angle at my screen then the color distortion from TN is way more distracting, to the point where I can't see anything on it.

 

[soska66]

Just to say something before commenting, I'm using about 6-7 years old 22'' Belinea TN monitor and, if it didn't begin dying on me, I wouldn't consider finding a replacement. I have absolutely no point of reference to other screens - I wouldn't know that color shifting annoys me, that viewing angles or color representation could be better. So basically any monitor would be an upgrade for me at this stage

@leht

You made me wanting to revisit the 120/144Hz monitor range a bit. Is there still that much benefit from having a 120Hz monitor even if you mostly hover over 60-80fps? Put it this way, if you knew your GPU can only generate 60fps tops, would you still get 120Hz TN monitor over normal standard 60Hz TN one?

@redzo @Piroko
I'm really bothered that I may find the glow more annoying than color shifting or any other TN flaw which I don't even realize I may be suffering from atm
Just looking at the games I played in recent months - Tomb Raider, Metro Last Light, Outlast, Amnesia, Dishonored - they all have significant amount of dark areas and black color.
I know that first suggestion to make when someone is after depth of black color is to get a VA screen - but these on the other hand are the worst (slowest in both input lag and response time params) for gaming, I hear. So I think lesser evil would be a little glow when compared to ghosting and smearing

 

[bystander36]

About the 120hz/144hz option. leht gave a bit of misinformation on it. While 120+hz monitors do reduce how much tearing is present on the screen when not using v-sync, it does not remove tearing. For some, they may find it hard to see, but it is there, it is still pretty good at making you not care about tearing, and reduces latency to a minimum as a result.

The TN versions of 120-144hz also have much less motion blur, particularly if you use one with strobing/Lightboost/UMLB/G-sync.

You may also find that you like motion smoothness over higher IQ settings. When I made the switch, I found that 80+ FPS was much better to me than max settings, and would play at high settings often, in order to get to those FPS.

 

[soska66]

What GPU do you owe? Do you hit 120fps often?

I have gtx 770 and simply trying to understand if I will indeed benefit from 120Hz screen while having this card and playing mainly single player games (fps, rpg, rts, sport games)

 

[TerryMathews]

Simple solution: get a QX2710 (single input DVI model) and overclock to a refresh that your rig can consistently hit. I've got mine set at 96kHz, so that movies are smooth.

 

[bystander36]

What GPU do you owe? Do you hit 120fps often?

I have gtx 770 and simply trying to understand if I will indeed benefit from 120Hz screen while having this card and playing mainly single player games (fps, rpg, rts, sport games)

If you are talking to me, I started with a single 680 when I got my 120hz monitor. Like I mentioned, I learned that motion smoothness mattered more to me than high IQ settings, so I'd play at high settings instead of Ultra/Maxed settings. Eventually I decided I wanted both, and got a 2nd 680.

 

[angevil]

I am a good such case, i gamed on a TN monitor for years, and a CRT a few years before too. I have since several months ago a Yamasaki Q271 Led, which i game on and browse the net on daily.

The panel could be lower quality, and technology may have improved since then, but pixel glow on this monitor does bother me a little in dark games. I only notice it when the screen is very dark. It is in all 4 corners, and it moves depending on my position on the chair.

It is a little frustrating that i bought this second hand isp monitor thinking that i will stop worrying about the viewing angles. The colors themselves do not change as i change the viewing angle, however the corner glow spreads significantly, including on bright images too, when i change the viewing angle , where i am not sitting directly on front of the screen.

Practically, while it is better than on a TN panel, the screen glow in the corner makes me still care of viewing angle, as the bigger the angle i sit in front of the monitor, the more it glows, making the image grey.

 

[lehtv]

You made me wanting to revisit the 120/144Hz monitor range a bit. Is there still that much benefit from having a 120Hz monitor even if you mostly hover over 60-80fps? Put it this way, if you knew your GPU can only generate 60fps tops, would you still get 120Hz TN monitor over normal standard 60Hz TN one?

No, if I knew I'd be locked to max 60 fps, I'd get an IPS monitor and try to adjust settings so as to keep it from falling below 60 fps while using Vsync. 120hz would still be smoother and allow for no Vsync, but IPS would probably be nicer to look at overall, even for someone like me who is pretty nitpicky about framerates and motion smoothness.

But that's not a realistic scenario for me. I play Quake Live which has an old enough graphics engine that it's extremely easy to run at maximum fps. It's utterly unplayable at 60 fps hz because it doesn't properly utilize Vsync; as long as I play that game, I'll stick to 120hz.

About the 120hz/144hz option. leht gave a bit of misinformation on it. While 120+hz monitors do reduce how much tearing is present on the screen when not using v-sync, it does not remove tearing. For some, they may find it hard to see, but it is there, it is still pretty good at making you not care about tearing, and reduces latency to a minimum as a result.

I think that's understating it. For most, there will be so little tearing that the experience is identical to not having tearing at all. You have to be extremely nitpicky to be bothered by it on 120hz.

The TN versions of 120-144hz also have much less motion blur, particularly if you use one with strobing/Lightboost/UMLB/G-sync.

True, motion blur is reduced. I've used my BenQ XL2411T with and without 2D lightboost, and while it's easy to demonstrate the difference, it's not worth the hassle to me. I prefer the better colors of non-lightboosted 2D, because the difference between 120hz and 60hz is already staggering enough.

 

[soska66]

The panel could be lower quality, and technology may have improved since then, but pixel glow on this monitor does bother me a little in dark games. I only notice it when the screen is very dark. It is in all 4 corners, and it moves depending on my position on the chair.

It is a little frustrating that i bought this second hand isp monitor thinking that i will stop worrying about the viewing angles. The colors themselves do not change as i change the viewing angle, however the corner glow spreads significantly, including on bright images too, when i change the viewing angle , where i am not sitting directly on front of the screen.

Practically, while it is better than on a TN panel, the screen glow in the corner makes me still care of viewing angle, as the bigger the angle i sit in front of the monitor, the more it glows, making the image grey.

This is exactly what worries me. And I also hear Dell P2414H, even tho has good reviews, is a 'budget' IPS which suffers significantly from glow and bleed. Thinking that I'd rather continue see color shifting and/other TN flaws that I got used to rather than invest in a budget IPS with different but very crucial flaw. And perhaps get a proper IPS or VA (Eizo has a nice one) when technology gets better and selection gets bigger. In other words, get best TN rather than poor IPS

So now just trying to understand if 120hz makes sense to me.

Just out of interest, do you know any good gaming ips from a mid, not budget, range?

 

[bystander36]

True, motion blur is reduced. I've used my BenQ XL2411T with and without 2D lightboost, and while it's easy to demonstrate the difference, it's not worth the hassle to me. I prefer the better colors of non-lightboosted 2D, because the difference between 120hz and 60hz is already staggering enough.

The new G-sync monitors UMLB mode is supposed to have fixed this issue, and those with them confirm it. I wonder if non G-sync monitors will start using the same tech to improve the color problems of Lightboost.

 

[BrightCandle]

My comparison is a Dell U2410 (IPS 1920x1200 60hz) compared to a Benq XL2411T (TN 1920x1080 144hz). The Dell is about one of the best IPS monitors out there for latency and motion blur, so its a "gamers" IPS. The Benq XL2411T is a 144Hz 3D vision 2 monitor and its latency and motion blur are obviously a lot better than then Dell. I have calibrated both monitors with basic screen tools to find the best compromise in colour quality and brightness. I like quite low brightness and this is a bit of a problem on the Benq as its minimum is realistically about 120, whereas I prefer around 70-80 so I compromise a bit on darks and very bright images to get it lower overall.

When I put the Dell next to the Benq in a game like Arma 2/3 there is a noticeable difference in the colour of the grass. On the Benq its mostly just green, but on the IPS its got shades of yellow green and brown green in there, definitely a clear difference when laying down in the grass and looking out over the scene of the world. The trees look a bit more realistic and overall I feel the higher dynamic range of colours in the world and it shows up in the sky colour and the grass mostly. However when I moved I can immediately feel the advantage the Benq has. The problem with the Dell is that there is quite a lot of motion blur (despite it still being one of the best IPS monitors for blur) and compared to the Benq you can't see anything. I can happily spot enemies moving in the distance on the Benq if I am walking, movement doesn't make any difference. On the IPS monitor I need to stop in order to scan the area, because in motion the sharpness of the image is wrecked by the motion blur. I wouldn't have known the blur was that bad unless I had got the Benq, I honestly thought it was fine until I got the new monitor.

In a game like Battlefield 4 where its faster action I do a lot of moving and shooting. The Benq dramatically improved my K/D. It just allowed me to spot enemies on the move easier and faster and also made aiming and shooting easier as well. Its partly the increased frame rate/hz of the monitor but I attribute a lot of the advantage to the motion blur which dramatically reduced on the Benq screen.

I have gamed on the Dell for about 3 years, the Benq for a little under a year and I am sold on 120hz+ screens and motion blur reduction. I want the colour quality of the IPS but the increased update to the screen matters a lot more to me, and I just don't notice the fact the colours aren't perfect when its in motion, but I sure do notice the motion blur of the IPS always. Even in Windows the Benq is nice, the 144hz is a dramatic improvement on the mouse, everytime you move a mouse on a 60hz screen after having used a higher frequency you literally see the mouse jump around the screen on 60. Once you go high frequency its really hard to go back and I wont be buying anything below 120hz from now on. Even then I would be wary of an IPS at 120hz unless the motion blur and latency have been tested to be really good as well because these aspects make a dramatic difference even when you aren't maintaining 144 fps in game.

 

[soska66]

Thanks guys for feedback

I'm looking at threads about IPS glow, also pictures people post, and just based on that, I can't understand how a gamer can cope with this. I can't see myself trading nice colors and angels (which I don't need since I don't watch movies and always sit in central position) for such a glow. Add frequent RMA on the backlight bleed and it makes me not want to go thru the process of purchasing an IPS. I may be wrong, yes, I have no live reference to IPS monitor, but having played hundreds of games in last 6 years on my 22 inch crappy Belinea TN, I have never stopped for a moment thinking 'hold on a mintue, WTF is wrong with this screen'. Black is lacking depth, of course, it is TN technology after all, but it's tons less annoying than I see on all those IPS pictures

I think I may try the 120Hz one. I do have gtx 770, there is a number of games that I can run at or close to 120fps, there would be still a lot I can run in 60-80fps and only one so far, Metro Last Light (didn't try Crysis 3) that run at only 60fps or a bit less (but that's on ultra settings, switching SSAO off and one more setting to high gives me well over 80). So I figure I may have fun for a year or two before I can't get more than 60fps in any game. Of course this poses a risk that I won't be satisified with my GPU anymore, even tho I would still be if I had a 60Hz screen, but that's another matter as it's is only a prediction - can't know for sure

 

[Stuka87]

Backlight bleed through has nothing to do with the panel type. I have had both TN's and IPS displays with edge bleed. Some monitors have more then others. You can just as easily buy a TN that has terrible edge bleed.

It is obviously the most noticeable if you play/watch in a pitch black room. But if you are watching in a dark room, you should have the brightness adjusted down to compensate for that.

My display has a little bit of bleed, nothing major. But the view angles more than make up for what bleed there is. I cannot stand TN displays because of the color shifts.

 

[lehtv]

FWIW here's a photo of my xl2411t taken with a smartphone in black&white (because the camera phone greatly exaggerated the coloration):

It looks better to the human eye. Firstly, the graininess is just a camera artifact due to the low light conditions. Secondly, when looking at the center of the screen from a normal desktop monitor viewing distance, the impression is more or less uniform. The sharp bleed from the bottom edge of the panel is the easiest to notice, but again, it smooths out when your eyes are focusing on the center of the monitor.

Brightness 30/100
Contrast 30/100
Gamma 5/5

 

[soska66]

Sorry, that's an image of your 120hz TN, right?

 

[BarkingGhostar]

I miss the days of Viewsonic's Professional Series CRT monitors. The beat the f-ing pants off of their Graphics Series, which lasted only a couple of years longer before CRTs went the way of the do-do.

The technological act of blocking light that is being produced 100% of the time is insignificant to the force of not producing light in the first place (CRT). It is unfortunate that FED/SED never reached market viability.

 

[soska66]

This is my current TN with a dark scene from game Outlast (my character facing a wall in dark corner). Photo taken with a tablet
Brightness 50/100
Contrast 75/100

The black at the photo, especially when compared to the wall behind the monitor, looks a lot brighter in real life

Not sure what methodology to take to compare images of screens in the dark to be honest, but if it's as simple as looking at the photo, you can understand my concern with all those photos of IPS glow and bleed

 

[lehtv]

That looks extremely even, I'm impressed. You might have a hard time finding a monitor with equally good backlight bleed (or lack of).

Sorry, that's an image of your 120hz TN, right?

Yes. BenQ XL2411T. Technically it's 144hz but on the desktop I run it at 120hz (allows GPU to downclock properly).

 

[soska66]

That looks extremely even, I'm impressed. You might have a hard time finding a monitor with equally good backlight bleed (or lack of).

Damn, not something I want to hear

 

[DownTheSky]

Yes IPS glow is a big problem in a dark room. Having just bought an IPS TV I can definitely confirm it. If you want to play at night, stick to TN or better, VA panels.

EDIT: If you don't want 120hz I highly recommend this unit:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-KDL32W...id=1400510126&sr=1-1&keywords=sony+kdl+32w653