Invading Japan, WWII

[cwjerome]

Someone forwarded this to me and even though the subject has probably been worn, I thought I'd share it. Here's the beginning:

--------------------------

Deep in the recesses of the National Archives in Washington, D.C., hidden for nearly four decades, lie thousands of pages of yellowing and dusty documents stamped ?Top Secret?. These documents, now declassified, are the plans for Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan during World War II. Only a few Americans in 1945 were aware of the elaborate plans that had been prepared for the Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands. Even fewer today are aware of the defenses the Japanese had prepared to counter the invasion had it been launched. Operation Downfall was finalized during the spring and summer of 1945. It called for two massive military undertakings to be carried out in succession and aimed at the heart of the Japanese Empire.

In the first invasion - code named Operation Olympic - American combat troops would land on Japan by amphibious assault during the early morning hours of November 1, 1945. Fourteen combat divisions of soldiers and Marines would land on heavily fortified and defended Kyushu, the southernmost of the Japanese home islands, after an unprecedented naval and aerial bombardment. The second invasion - code named Operation Coronet - would send at least 22 combat divisions against 1 million Japanese defenders on the main island of Honshu and the Tokyo Plain. Its goal: the unconditional surrender of Japan. With the exception of the British Pacific Fleet, Operation Downfall was to be a strictly American operation. It called for using the entire Marine Corps, the entire Pacific Navy, elements of the 7th Army Air Force, the 8th Air Force (recently deployed from Europe), the 10th Air Force, and the American Far Eastern Air Force. More the 1.5 million combat soldiers, with 3 million more in support or more than 40 percent of all servicemen still in uniform in 1945 - would be directly involved in the two amphibious assaults. Casualties were expected to be extremely heavy.

--------------------

It's one of the more interesting what-ifs? of the 20th century in my opinion. Even with conservative estimates, the "Battle of Japan" could have surpassed the Battle of Stalingrad (approx. 2 million casualties in 168 days) as the bloodiest battle in human history.

This guy did some research and painted an even costlier picture than many.

And one more extra source for additional info.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Avoiding this invasion is the main reason that I support the use of the atomic bomb to end world war 2. The casualties on both sides would have been FAR higher (civilians included) should this invasion have occurred.

 

[Arkaign]

This already had a massive thread a couple of months back ..

Most people look at as : Invade Japan vs. Use Nukes .. with no other choices.

I think option 3 = since they had no navy/air force left, and the Emperor had already begun negotiations for surrender (which we never really got them to give us a real unconditional surrender, the Emperor kept his title and prestige even after being responsible for war crimes) .. we could have just waited for their internal economic/political collapse, and met with the emerging replacement government with nary a shot fired. Or we could have let China and/or Russia at them, both options would have been a wild bloodbath, but again, no US soldiers would be necessary.

Lot of what-ifs .. the use of a nuclear weapon (or any weapon, really) on civilians is horrible, but that was the standard back then. Hopefully humanity will reach a point where it's not even imaginable to perpetrate such horrors.

 

[wazzledoozle]

My great grandpa was on that island just south of mainland japan that the US turned into a big airbase, he told me that in the weeks before we dropped the a-bomb that there were rumors circulating that everyone would be re-trained as infantry for a ground invasion.

I also heard somewhere else that if we had invaded, engineers would have been among the first people to land, to take out obstructions on the beach to land more troops. My great grandpa was an engineer 🙁

I (most likley) wouldnt be here today if we hadnt dropped the a-bomb...

 

[Arglebargle]

The thing is, the decision makers really were not fully aware of the consequences of using nuclear weapons. I am pretty sure it was only slightly more than 'one bomb -- big boom!' info. Sad thing being that one bomb was probably enough, but things just weren't moving fast enough for them so the second one went in. There is always the supposition that it was perhaps also designed to bring the Soviets to heel in the post war world. Invading Japan would have been bloody. My dad would have been doing low level bombing for the invasion......

Now, using nukes a second time, when you know the full story, that's a different kettle of fish.

 

[ProfJohn]

I don?t know about the second nuke theory.
If you read about it the generals in charge still did not want to surrender after the first bomb fell. They did not understand that it was one bomb and not an entire air raid.
There was a lot of confusion on the Japanese side.
When we dropped the second bomb we sent a message, a false one since we had a limited supply of bombs, however the message the Japanese got was that we would keep dropping them until they gave up.
Faced with the idea of one city after another being wiped of the face of the planet they surrendered.
You are using a lot of 20/20 hindsight in thinking a second bomb was not needed.
It is also notable that the landing at Iwo Jima was probably not necessary either; we could have just by passed the island and went after more strategic sites. But at the time it made a lot of sense.

 

[Arglebargle]

While the '...and we have a lot more...' message of the second bomb is pretty legit, the speed of it was probably unnecessary. Letting them know that we could do it again, and would indeed do so might have led to things shaking out differently. But the war mentality is pretty gripping, and there was little love lost for the Japanese at that point.

I don't blame 'em, they still didn't have a clear idea what the results were. Just with a little patience, it could have played out better. But patience is often in short supply.

I did see a lot of the footage shot by the very first Americans into the Hiroshima area, an advance team sent in by jeep to assess the damage. It was pretty horrifying, and has really hardened my attitude towards anyone who does something like that again. No excuses there....

 

[Zebo]

Only an idiot puts their troops on the ground with the enemy if you have other capability. This is back when we knew how to fight too and didn't talk about "winning Japanese hearts and minds" until they totally and utterly surrendered. Whats nessesary for that to occur we are unwilling or unable to do in modern times.

Another thing if you *really* want to compare warfare in WWII to today is something no one wants to recognize anymore is from Alexander until WWII, the last war USA won, you won by killing civilians until they no longer supported their army or militants and rolled over in mass. This is the way wars are won. The basics have never changed. "Just War Theory" a liberals feely touchy guide to warfare, which really started in western warfare with Truman, who lost us NK, has perverted warfare into "hope and prey" your enemies will behave just like Oklahomans if you just build them enough hospitals and day care centers. Meanwhile it puts your men, the US soldier, under undue risks and hardship.

Finally we are so PC today we can't even identify and rid ourselves of the threat because we never bothered to address the ideology that makes it profitable to blow ones self up in the name of Allah. Until we address Islams tenants, motives and teachings and even outlaw it's practice, just like we did German Nazism and Japanese Kodo in WWII, the basis for jihad and instruments of jihad will continue indefinitely. If you're not willing to do that you will have a forever problem.

 

[bamacre]

I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

 

[K1052]

My grandfather (artillery officer) was prepping to go in on Olympic when the bombs were dropped.

The only alternative to invading or dropping the bomb was to starve them out. Japan suffered a rice crop failure in 1945 and American air and sea forces badly crippled their transportation systems so they could not actually transport what food they did have. A lot of Japan was perched dangerously on the edge of mass starvation by the late summer of 45. A continuation of the war via bombing/shelling/blockade would have assuredly meant millions more Japanese deaths.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Considering the alternatives it seems to have been the best decision for all involved.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Better that than having a million US soldiers and countless more Japanese die from an invasion.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Considering the alternatives it seems to have been the best decision for all involved.

Except for those who lived in the two cities.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Considering the alternatives it seems to have been the best decision for all involved.

Except for those who lived in the two cities.

You are forgetting that that was back when American lives were considered more important than the lives of our enemies.

 

[Slackware]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Better that than having a million US soldiers and countless more Japanese die from an invasion.

YAY for US education that only teaches bullshit propaganda about these things, Vietnam war was a righteous war and Nixon was an ok guy too, right?

The war was already over, the US wanted to show the world their new weapon, that was the only reason it was dropped.

Vain, but hey, isn't that what being American is all about, being vain?

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Slackware

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Better that than having a million US soldiers and countless more Japanese die from an invasion.

YAY for US education that only teaches bullshit propaganda about these things, Vietnam war was a righteous war and Nixon was an ok guy too, right?

The war was already over, the US wanted to show the world their new weapon, that was the only reason it was dropped.

Vain, but hey, isn't that what being American is all about, being vain?

And where are you from? Is everyone else so condescending and ignorant?

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Considering the alternatives it seems to have been the best decision for all involved.

Except for those who lived in the two cities.

Casualties of a war they started.

There is a reason you never hear a peep out of Asia about our use of atomic weapons on Japan in WWII.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Slackware

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Better that than having a million US soldiers and countless more Japanese die from an invasion.

YAY for US education that only teaches bullshit propaganda about these things, Vietnam war was a righteous war and Nixon was an ok guy too, right?

The war was already over, the US wanted to show the world their new weapon, that was the only reason it was dropped.

Vain, but hey, isn't that what being American is all about, being vain?

and you have the gall to call other people uneducated...

:roll:

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Considering the alternatives it seems to have been the best decision for all involved.

Except for those who lived in the two cities.

Casualties of a war they started.

There is a reason you never hear a peep out of Asia about our use of atomic weapons on Japan in WWII.

Yup those re-education camps, banning Kodo, enforcing speech codes and rewriting all their text books worked. America #1.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Slackware

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Better that than having a million US soldiers and countless more Japanese die from an invasion.

YAY for US education that only teaches bullshit propaganda about these things, Vietnam war was a righteous war and Nixon was an ok guy too, right?

The war was already over, the US wanted to show the world their new weapon, that was the only reason it was dropped.

Vain, but hey, isn't that what being American is all about, being vain?

The war was far from over. Japna still controlled the Korena peninsula and had a significant army in Manchuria. The Japanese homeland was heavily defended and waiting for Japan to see the futility of fighting on would have been wasted.

The use of those two weapons was horrific, but quite frankly, the fire bompbing of Tokyo was worse, and an invasion of the home islands would have been even more terrible than what did happen.

edit for sp

 

[Tab]

You guys do know there were more alternatives than a mass invasion or the use of atomic bombs... Right? 😕

 

[glutenberg]

I'm perplexed by the logic of, "there were greater atrocities than dropping atom bombs therefore dropping atom bombs is not so bad." My grandparents were in Nanjing during the invasion and even I wouldn't wish the utter destruction of human lives in less than a flash. It's just not right to be so cruel.

Edit: I'm sure my grandparents would beg to differ, but they lived through some terrible atrocities, so I understand their view. It's just too harsh to see so many lives wiped out like that.

 

[Slackware]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Someone forwarded this to me and even though the subject has probably been worn, I thought I'd share it. Here's the beginning:

--------------------------

Deep in the recesses of the National Archives in Washington, D.C., hidden for nearly four decades, lie thousands of pages of yellowing and dusty documents stamped ?Top Secret?. These documents, now declassified, are the plans for Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan during World War II. Only a few Americans in 1945 were aware of the elaborate plans that had been prepared for the Allied invasion of the Japanese home islands. Even fewer today are aware of the defenses the Japanese had prepared to counter the invasion had it been launched. Operation Downfall was finalized during the spring and summer of 1945. It called for two massive military undertakings to be carried out in succession and aimed at the heart of the Japanese Empire.

In the first invasion - code named Operation Olympic - American combat troops would land on Japan by amphibious assault during the early morning hours of November 1, 1945. Fourteen combat divisions of soldiers and Marines would land on heavily fortified and defended Kyushu, the southernmost of the Japanese home islands, after an unprecedented naval and aerial bombardment. The second invasion - code named Operation Coronet - would send at least 22 combat divisions against 1 million Japanese defenders on the main island of Honshu and the Tokyo Plain. Its goal: the unconditional surrender of Japan. With the exception of the British Pacific Fleet, Operation Downfall was to be a strictly American operation. It called for using the entire Marine Corps, the entire Pacific Navy, elements of the 7th Army Air Force, the 8th Air Force (recently deployed from Europe), the 10th Air Force, and the American Far Eastern Air Force. More the 1.5 million combat soldiers, with 3 million more in support or more than 40 percent of all servicemen still in uniform in 1945 - would be directly involved in the two amphibious assaults. Casualties were expected to be extremely heavy.

--------------------

It's one of the more interesting what-ifs? of the 20th century in my opinion. Even with conservative estimates, the "Battle of Japan" could have surpassed the Battle of Stalingrad (approx. 2 million casualties in 168 days) as the bloodiest battle in human history.

This guy did some research and painted an even costlier picture than many.

And one more extra source for additional info.

A US invsasion would cleraly not have been an option in neither Germany or Japan, of which they did dot attack either until they were forced into war by both.

Without the Russian bear, the US would not have stood a chance, without the US, the battle was mostly done over the borders as the US came into battle.

 

[Genx87]

afaik the purple hearts they give out today were created specifically for this battle.

The lives lost in this invasion would have dwarfed anything lost from the Nuclear Detonations at Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

You would have had the direct military casualties expected at 1 million for our side. Then the Japanese Army casualties. Then the unbeleivable famine and hardships of the civilian population who most likely would have fought to the death as well.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: bamacre
I don't care how you cut it, dropping an atomic weapon on a city isn't right. Karma is a bitch, and one day, eventually, and unfortunately, we'll get bit.

Considering the alternatives it seems to have been the best decision for all involved.

Except for those who lived in the two cities.

And your altenative would have given them what better outcome? Starvation and being burned to death by napalm?

What a humanitarian you are.