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Interesting War Cartoon

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Originally posted by: rgwalt
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: rgwalt
Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: rgwalt
The difference between Goering, Gobbles, Hitler, Eichman, etc and the US government: We aren't systematically gassing Jews and committing genocide.

Damn...

Ryan

The Nazis did it for their (bad) ideals. Bush does stuff for power and money, and out of stupidity.

Or do you dare claim that Bush liberated Afghanistan and brought them better times? Not like it is any better now there, and not like Bush is straining hard to improve the situation. As long as he gets what he wants he'd be willing to watch Saddam torture you and your family to death.
You guys are perfect fodder. The clan in your sig says it all. I can't believe what has become of some of our kids. Too much MTV?

Exactly... they are making it almost too easy.

R

dude just keep wathing fox news, waving the flag now and then and everything is gonna be good...

the point of the cartoon was to illustrate the propaganda methods used now and then are very similar...not to draw a paralle between us and nazi germany

I think the point of the cartoon was clearly to draw a parallel between the US and Nazi Germany. Another comparison may be drawn, too, but when the majority of people read something like that which makes any comparsions between Nazi party members and US officials, there is an automatic assumption made. The assumption is that the US government is no better than the Nazi's in World War 2. I'm not a blind patriot. I'm just being reasonable.

Ryan

read the captions on top of the pictures...its about propaganda and thats alll. Theres is nothing in the actual cartoon that would link US to nazi germany. The whole thing just describes how to get peoplet odo what oyu want. Kinda reamins of of Mein Kampf (my fight...writen by adolf hitler) ... it describes how to use media and propaganda to get control of the population

 
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: rgwalt
The difference between Goering, Gobbles, Hitler, Eichman, etc and the US government: We aren't systematically gassing Jews and committing genocide.

Damn...

Ryan

The Nazis did it for their (bad) ideals. Bush does stuff for power and money, and out of stupidity.

Or do you dare claim that Bush liberated Afghanistan and brought them better times? Not like it is any better now there, and not like Bush is straining hard to improve the situation. As long as he gets what he wants he'd be willing to watch Saddam torture you and your family to death.
You guys are perfect fodder. The clan in your sig says it all. I can't believe what has become of some of our kids. Too much MTV?

No, I just hate f*cking Republicans even more than Osama and Saddam.

Show me proof that Bush is actually trying hard to improve the situation for people there. But then, you don't care about proof either most likely.

Way to lump a political party and turn them into something worse than terrorists and mass murderers. If you think the Republicans are the cause of all the world's problems, then vote for someone else.

Ryan
 
Originally posted by: rgwalt

I think the point of the cartoon was clearly to draw a parallel between the US and Nazi Germany.

You thinking is a first anyway.

But the methods Goering described were standard methods governments used and still use to keep the population quiet about stuff the government does.
The cartoonist may or may not have meant to draw a parallel, but the methodology still remains the same.
 
Our sanctions don't kill civilians, their governments do.

Per norm . . . you are almost right. While compiling the list of sanctions (including the prohibition against dual-use technology) it was clear from OUR State Dept that prohibiting the import of materials like (chlorine) would dramatically affect Iraq's ability to purify water. You are absolutely correct in stating, "Saddam is a bad man and he will make bad things" . . . but that wouldn't prohibit the US/UN from building water purification plants directly or building them in neighboring friendly countries . . . . . . . . . oh yeah, Jordan and sorta Kuwait and then transporting water via aqueducts.

The Bush admin tried to block atropine importation for Iraq. Iraq ordered it in dosages appropriate for cardiac stimulation . . . but the Bushies feared they wanted a VX antidote . . . although at the imported doses Iraqis would have to shoot themselves 5x.

Iraq would be a healthier, wealthier nation if Saddam wasn't in charge. Granted, Saddam wouldn't be in charge if we had not assisted him after he invaded Iran. Regardless, sanctions on despotic regimes rarely changes the regime . . . it just further victimizes the people.

Cuba . . . Cuba . . . Cuba

 
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: rgwalt
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: rgwalt
Originally posted by: oldsmoboat
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: rgwalt
The difference between Goering, Gobbles, Hitler, Eichman, etc and the US government: We aren't systematically gassing Jews and committing genocide.

Damn...

Ryan

The Nazis did it for their (bad) ideals. Bush does stuff for power and money, and out of stupidity.

Or do you dare claim that Bush liberated Afghanistan and brought them better times? Not like it is any better now there, and not like Bush is straining hard to improve the situation. As long as he gets what he wants he'd be willing to watch Saddam torture you and your family to death.
You guys are perfect fodder. The clan in your sig says it all. I can't believe what has become of some of our kids. Too much MTV?

Exactly... they are making it almost too easy.

R

dude just keep wathing fox news, waving the flag now and then and everything is gonna be good...

the point of the cartoon was to illustrate the propaganda methods used now and then are very similar...not to draw a paralle between us and nazi germany

I think the point of the cartoon was clearly to draw a parallel between the US and Nazi Germany. Another comparison may be drawn, too, but when the majority of people read something like that which makes any comparsions between Nazi party members and US officials, there is an automatic assumption made. The assumption is that the US government is no better than the Nazi's in World War 2. I'm not a blind patriot. I'm just being reasonable.

Ryan

read the captions on top of the pictures...its about propaganda and thats alll. Theres is nothing in the actual cartoon that would link US to nazi germany. The whole thing just describes how to get peoplet odo what oyu want. Kinda reamins of of Mein Kampf (my fight...writen by adolf hitler) ... it describes how to use media and propaganda to get control of the population

I did read the comic, and I do realize that it is talking about propaganda. What I am saying is that any time you make mention that the US is using the same tactics as Nazi Germany used, or make any kind of comparison, an automatic assumption is made that the material is saying the US is just as bad as the Nazi's. Whether or not that assumption is correct or intended is another discussion. Personally I don't think people understand just how terrible the Nazi's really were... I think if you understood the full weight, you wouldn't toss around comparisons so lightly, no matter how thin the comparisons are.

Ryan
 
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
Originally posted by: rgwalt

I think the point of the cartoon was clearly to draw a parallel between the US and Nazi Germany.

You thinking is a first anyway.

But the methods Goering described were standard methods governments used and still use to keep the population quiet about stuff the government does.
The cartoonist may or may not have meant to draw a parallel, but the methodology still remains the same.

This personal attack barely deserves a response, but at least you articulated thoughts that actually make sense in this post.

Ryan

 
Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Our sanctions don't kill civilians, their governments do.

Per norm . . . you are almost right. While compiling the list of sanctions (including the prohibition against dual-use technology) it was clear from OUR State Dept that prohibiting the import of materials like (chlorine) would dramatically affect Iraq's ability to purify water. You are absolutely correct in stating, "Saddam is a bad man and he will make bad things" . . . but that wouldn't prohibit the US/UN from building water purification plants directly or building them in neighboring friendly countries . . . . . . . . . oh yeah, Jordan and sorta Kuwait and then transporting water via aqueducts.

The Bush admin tried to block atropine importation for Iraq. Iraq ordered it in dosages appropriate for cardiac stimulation . . . but the Bushies feared they wanted a VX antidote . . . although at the imported doses Iraqis would have to shoot themselves 5x.

Iraq would be a healthier, wealthier nation if Saddam wasn't in charge. Granted, Saddam wouldn't be in charge if we had not assisted him after he invaded Iran. Regardless, sanctions on despotic regimes rarely changes the regime . . . it just further victimizes the people.

Cuba . . . Cuba . . . Cuba

Now these facts (assuming they are true, which I have no reason to doubt) form a compelling argument. A couple of questions... about the atropine (for arguments sake) couldn't Iraq have just combined the atropine doses to make a VX antidote? As far as our past involvement with Iraq and Iran, it is too bad that history comes back to bite us in the ass, but hindsight is always 20/20. As far as our sanctions against Cuba go, it is tough to lift them after 40+ years, but Cuba isn't the threat to the US that it used to be.

Ryan
 
ok....we've got a neighbor that's a little nuts. She also watches dogs. If I were to say to her: "I'm going to burn your kennel down if you don't stop (insert demand here)."


Time goes by, she doesn't do what I tell her.....I burn down her kennel and kill all of her dogs.


Who's fault is it? Hers or mine?

My thinking is....She's a nut, and I should KNOW that she's a nut, so I'm ultimately responsible for burning her kennel down.

So, yea...it IS the US's fault that Iraqi civilians die as a result of US led sanctions. Saddam could have averted it all, but any idiot should know that he WOULD NEVER take action to avert civilian casualties, amd I right..? So we need to take the high road and help innocent Iraqi people whenever we can, but we don't seem to want to do that....we just blame Saddam an pretend to be completely innocent...
 
Originally posted by: railer
ok....we've got a neighbor that's a little nuts. She also watches dogs. If I were to say to her: "I'm going to burn your kennel down if you don't stop (insert demand here)."


Time goes by, she doesn't do what I tell her.....I burn down her kennel and kill all of her dogs.


Who's fault is it? Hers or mine?

My thinking is....She's a nut, and I should KNOW that she's a nut, so I'm ultimately responsible for burning her kennel down.

So, yea...it IS the US's fault that Iraqi civilians die as a result of US led sanctions. Saddam could have averted it all, but any idiot should know that he WOULD NEVER take action to avert civilian casualties, amd I right..? So we need to take the high road and help innocent Iraqi people whenever we can, but we don't seem to want to do that....we just blame Saddam an pretend to be completely innocent...

Interesting argument. However, how are we supposed to help the people of Iraq? With Saddam still in power, I don't think it is possible to directly help the Iraqis. Look at Somalia... Adid intercepted food shipments from the UN and the US and took them for his soldiers. The only way to make sure that the food gets to the people is to insert an occupation force. At this point, either fighting breaks out, or we might as well set up a new government.

Also, Saddam isn't certifiable. He knows that he is taking the money and chosing to kill his own people. He and his government are making a choice on how to use the money. You may be able to make the argument that the US should have done more to help the Iraqis, but you cannot place the blame squarely on the US.

Ryan
 
Originally posted by: rgwalt
Originally posted by: railer
ok....we've got a neighbor that's a little nuts. She also watches dogs. If I were to say to her: "I'm going to burn your kennel down if you don't stop (insert demand here)."


Time goes by, she doesn't do what I tell her.....I burn down her kennel and kill all of her dogs.


Who's fault is it? Hers or mine?

My thinking is....She's a nut, and I should KNOW that she's a nut, so I'm ultimately responsible for burning her kennel down.

So, yea...it IS the US's fault that Iraqi civilians die as a result of US led sanctions. Saddam could have averted it all, but any idiot should know that he WOULD NEVER take action to avert civilian casualties, amd I right..? So we need to take the high road and help innocent Iraqi people whenever we can, but we don't seem to want to do that....we just blame Saddam an pretend to be completely innocent...

Interesting argument. However, how are we supposed to help the people of Iraq? With Saddam still in power, I don't think it is possible to directly help the Iraqis. Look at Somalia... Adid intercepted food shipments from the UN and the US and took them for his soldiers. The only way to make sure that the food gets to the people is to insert an occupation force. At this point, either fighting breaks out, or we might as well set up a new government.

Also, Saddam isn't certifiable. He knows that he is taking the money and chosing to kill his own people. He and his government are making a choice on how to use the money. You may be able to make the argument that the US should have done more to help the Iraqis, but you cannot place the blame squarely on the US.

Ryan

Easiest way to explain the dilemma is this:

The Iraqi population around here (mostly refugees) are divided into 2 groups.
The first group is pro-war, and supports the current military actions.
The second group don't like the idea of this war, where rockets are fired into densely populated cities, and where civilian casualties may very well occur. They fear for the lives of their family and loved ones. But... They are in favor of military action, preferably by the US supporting the opposition groups to throw down Saddam themselves, and otherwise by special forces going in to specifically take out Saddam and his family.

I myself support the second group. I am not anti-war as such, I am against the current war in favor of a different way to take down Saddam. No one sensible argues that he must be knocked down, but Bush' warmongering is useless too. Ruining the infrastructure and throwing the country into an even bigger chaos than before is not the best way for a new government to start.
 
Tom Tommorow's cartoons are great. i asked for a book of his comics for christmas, but damn santa didn't bring it.

dude just keep wathing fox news, waving the flag now and then and everything is gonna be good...
haha
 
read thouroughly. for those who dont know goering was one of the most powerful nazi leaders in germany, and found guilty in nuremberg war trials and sentenced to death.


This asswipe was owned as soon as he chose to post this retarded rhetoric...

...next time Junior, try doing a little more research into a subject before you decide to vomit up something someone in some leftwing liberal group claims to be the truth. Remember your an American, and as such a free man. Use some of that freedom to get off your lazy ass and research your subject, instead of regurgitating what was in some stupid comic strip.

At least TRY to be original.
~wnied~
 
Now these facts (assuming they are true, which I have no reason to doubt) form a compelling argument. A couple of questions... about the atropine (for arguments sake) couldn't Iraq have just combined the atropine doses to make a VX antidote? As far as our past involvement with Iraq and Iran, it is too bad that history comes back to bite us in the ass, but hindsight is always 20/20. As far as our sanctions against Cuba go, it is tough to lift them after 40+ years, but Cuba isn't the threat to the US that it used to be.

Although the movies rarely get it right . . . did you see The Rock? I believe they used VX (which is indeed typically dispersed as a viscous liquid). Anyway, VX is a cholinesterase inhibitor which means it blocks the breakdown of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine (Ach). CDC on VX

The antidote is quite effective at keeping you going long enough to get decontaminated and proper medical care but it MUST be administered immediately. The problem is that death can be caused by doses marginally above the doses that produce MILD symptoms . . . so when exposed you give an IMMEDIATE therapeutic dose of atropine (which may have to be repeated) . . . if not administered in a timely fashion Mr. Diaphragm stops working.

FoxNews version for the slow-wit

Every country makes value judgements about whom it will associate? Bush called Musharraf a dictator but wouldn't go so far as to say dictators are always bad . . . they are always bad for Americans but sometimes they are OK for others. Nixon, Ford, Carter, and Reagan supplied arms to the Indonesian government even though we were well aware they were slaughtering East Timorese . . . for some reason E. Timor thought they had a right to self-governance.

Iran had a VERY popular king. He was overthrown with the assistance of the CIA; the Shah of Iran was installed. He was NOT popular but the US assisted him in keeping the public down b/c the Shah was US-friendly. We all know what happened to the Shah.

Chile ELECTED a Socialist. We hate Socialist; so after lying to Congress about US activities in South America . . . Kissinger orchestrated the overthrow of an elected leader. Who did we get . . . Pinochet. Arguably one of the most despotic regimes in the history of the Western Hemisphere.

Iraq INVADED Iran under the auspices of pre-emption against a radical regime that MIGHT some day threaten Iraq . . . sound familiar? We stopped selling Saddam material when he started gassing large numbers of Iranian troops . . . but we did continue to provide intelligence about Iranian troop movements . . . and of course when it was convenient apparently we sold arms to the Iranians to fund paramilitary activities in Central America.

I rarely if ever use the terms good and evil to describe people . . . typically just their actions. Our government has a long history of assisting people commiting evil acts. We cannot claim ignorance but we typically claim those evil acts serve some greater good . . . which was almost always a lie.

Cuba was never a threat to the US. Cuba was an annoyance. It was insulting that a Socialist state could be so close to the world's greatest superpower. Much like Bush today . . . American heads of state were quick to raise the rhetoric about Cuba. Castro . . . the former blood-sucking trial lawyer . . . could see the writing on the wall. Therefore, he cozied up to the USSR . . . which subsequently used Cuba as a pawn in the ChessWars of the Superpowers.

Once the nukes were removed from Cuba, it ceased to be threat . . . unless of course you consider the IDEA of Socialism to be threatening. The embargo has made life difficult for the typical Cuban, given Castro an excuse for his failed socioeconomic policies, and created the distressing phenomena of having a large state's politics corrupted by the influence of a relatively small IMMIGRANT population . . . most of whom if held to the normal standards for immigration would still be in Cuba.

 
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