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Interesting vid: Murray Gell-Mann: Beauty and truth in physics

I respectfully disagree with many assertions of this nature.

So you're saying that the theory of everything, the grand unification theory, if it ever comes about, will not be a simple set of equations (or dare I dream - equation). But rather a large or complex assortment of various equations all messy and complicated but fitting each branch of physics thoroughly?
 
I respectfully disagree with many assertions of this nature.

Why? The ability to order elements pleasantly generally comes with understanding. A kludge is seen as a kludge because it hampers one's mobility - a good sign of incompleteness due to too narrow a focus. When all the elements present are actually taken into account, you can have thousands of ways of describing their interconnections.
 
So you're saying that the theory of everything, the grand unification theory, if it ever comes about, will not be a simple set of equations (or dare I dream - equation). But rather a large or complex assortment of various equations all messy and complicated but fitting each branch of physics thoroughly?


The problem is we still have no idea what a unit of 1 is and how small that unit might be.
 
Why? The ability to order elements pleasantly generally comes with understanding. A kludge is seen as a kludge because it hampers one's mobility - a good sign of incompleteness due to too narrow a focus. When all the elements present are actually taken into account, you can have thousands of ways of describing their interconnections.


Wanting things to be a particular way leads to bias on the data. You simply have to observe it and make notes about the behavior. regardless of your personal preference for it to be Just so.

the problem with all of this stuff. Most of it is currently unproveable.
 
Wanting things to be a particular way leads to bias on the data. You simply have to observe it and make notes about the behavior. regardless of your personal preference for it to be Just so.

the problem with all of this stuff. Most of it is currently unproveable.

I'm talking about ordering what is there.

Right now sitting in my forward vision I have a monitor group, a speaker group, a printer group, a computer group, and a wireless router group.

I can break out components nonsensically. Voice coil. Rollers. Green LED. Metal mesh. Electron gun. Another green LED. Microswitch. Transformer. Actuator. DC motor. 650nm laser. LCD. Potentiometer.

The second way isn't very pretty. If we didn't understand how everything interconnected, that would be the way we'd have to describe it. But since we do know how how these things work we can put them into pretty little ordered groups like I did to begin with.

The beauty of the truth comes after the truth.
You can also make it ugly by going completely against human ordering schemes.
 
I'm talking about ordering what is there.

Right now sitting in my forward vision I have a monitor group, a speaker group, a printer group, a computer group, and a wireless router group.

I can break out components nonsensically. Voice coil. Rollers. Green LED. Metal mesh. Electron gun. Another green LED. Microswitch. Transformer. Actuator. DC motor. 650nm laser. LCD. Potentiometer.

The second way isn't very pretty. If we didn't understand how everything interconnected, that would be the way we'd have to describe it. But since we do know how how these things work we can put them into pretty little ordered groups like I did to begin with.

The beauty of the truth comes after the truth.
You can also make it ugly by going completely against human ordering schemes.


the inherent problem in theoretical physics is that physists disagree with nature. Things in the universe or in nature do not care about our/your/everyones need for order.

Thats what holds back our understanding of it.

wait till they tell you space has mass.
 
explain reaction at a distance. D: space is empty right ?
It's loosely called (originally by Einstein) "spooky action at a distance," not "reaction at a distance." More commonly it's referred to as quantum entanglement. Yes, it's a reality. No, it can't be explained yet. Citing the lack of an explanation as a complete failure of physics is a type of logical fallacy though, and is silly on the face of it. btw, even though it is known to happen it still doesn't break any existing laws of physics.

And, no, space is not empty.
 
It's loosely called (originally by Einstein) "spooky action at a distance," not "reaction at a distance." More commonly it's referred to as quantum entanglement. Yes, it's a reality. No, it can't be explained yet. Citing the lack of an explanation as a complete failure of physics is a type of logical fallacy though, and is silly on the face of it. btw, even though it is known to happen it still doesn't break any existing laws of physics.

And, no, space is not empty.


You miss my point. thats how I know you didn't get it. Space has mass.

Nature abhors a vaccum. thats why the universe trys to fill up voids.

IE black holes.

IE space has mass.

the logical falacy is that we don't know why light is so slow. It is slow BTW. something slows it down.

your missing my point. Our physics work fine. up to a point.

Its like particles.

Are we really finding new ones ?

or are we just seeing the results of higher energy outputs from higher energy inputs ??

everytime we increase the energy input we get more higher energy particles. At what point are we just observing cuase and effect.
 
He's not the one missing the point.

If you're not trolling then you are massively ignorant about physics and apparently don't even realize it. You should back away from this thread quickly.


maybe I know alot about the subject and don't mind calling it on its bullshit.

why doesn't light trasmit instantly ?

your asking all the wrong qestions.

Ask this question.

Why do they keep finding newer higher energy particles at newer higher energy particle coliders ???

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ntropy-force-a-new-direction-for-gravity.html

Maybe there is no "graviton"

Secondly. time is a mental construct.
 
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maybe I know alot about the subject and don't mind calling it on its bullshit.
Knowing some physics words and having an understanding of physics are two completely separate things. You know a few words but clearly don't have a grasp of the subject.

why doesn't light trasmit instantly ?
It doesn't "transmit" instantly because light is a wave function and therefore must propogate. Nor is it "slow." Speed is relative and light is the fastest thing in the universe so, by definition, light is damn fast.

your asking all the wrong qestions.
No, you're asking dumb questions.

Ask this question.

Why do they keep finding newer higher energy particles at newer higher energy particle coliders ???
The Standard Model predicts those particles (and predicted them before they were actually observed in particle accelerators) and there is a limited number of them. In fact, the only one that hasn't yet been seen is the Higgs boson and there have been rumors that Fermilab has detected it recently.

It's quite possible there is no such thing as a graviton. It's always been my contention that gravity is not a force but merely an effect caused by mass interacting with space-time, much like Verlinde describes.

Secondly. time is a mental construct.
No it is not. Time is an English word that describes the incremental motions of particles in our universe, along with the expansion of space-time. The increments we assign to time can be looked at as somewhat arbitrary but in actuality they are not. We based those increments on natural motions like the vibrations of crystals, particle decay, and the motion of celestial objects. When humans are long gone from this universe time will still go on.
 
Knowing some physics words and having an understanding of physics are two completely separate things. You know a few words but clearly don't have a grasp of the subject.

Your a fiarly funny guy. I might be witholding a great deal of knowledge and be more interested in stirring the pot vs providing you with answers.you figure that out on your own.

It doesn't "transmit" instantly because light is a wave function and therefore must propogate. Nor is it "slow." Speed is relative and light is the fastest thing in the universe so, by definition, light is damn fast.

Light is actually fiarly slow.its takes over 14 billion years to cross the known universe. Thats pretty damn slow. but reaction at a distance occurs instantly.

How do you know it is the fastest thing in the universe ? did it ever occur to you that just maybe something else is faster. Hmmm just maybe ? could this be the crux of our issues with resolving quantum mechanics "if it is correct in the first place" and atomic level up physics. when you assume a constant arbitrarily "like einstien did" you put a big giant fix in the middle of the math.

what creates waves in photon motion ?

No, you're asking dumb questions.

LOLZ. they aren't dumb questions. they are questions which adress our basic lack of understanding of the underlying layers of the universe.

The Standard Model predicts those particles (and predicted them before they were actually observed in particle accelerators) and there is a limited number of them. In fact, the only one that hasn't yet been seen is the Higgs boson and there have been rumors that Fermilab has detected it recently.

ahh yes the gravity particle. Well do you find it odd that when you put more energy in you get more energetic particles comming out. Maybe what the data really says is.

If you put more energy in. Your get more energy out. But that would be far to obvious. the standard model has yet to resolve anything.

It's quite possible there is no such thing as a graviton. It's always been my contention that gravity is not a force but merely an effect caused by mass interacting with space-time, much like Verlinde describes.

Space time. what a novel concept. for instance lets remove time.

now we are left with space. what is it ? What is it made of ? does it have mass. does it exist as energy ? Is it binary ? is it organized ?

Time is relatively speaking a human paradigm based on out own perecptions.

time is change over distance. nothing more.

No it is not. Time is an English word that describes the incremental motions of particles in our universe, along with the expansion of space-time. The increments we assign to time can be looked at as somewhat arbitrary but in actuality they are not. We based those increments on natural motions like the vibrations of crystals, particle decay, and the motion of celestial objects. When humans are long gone from this universe time will still go on.

time is a human perecption.
 
Your a fiarly funny guy. I might be witholding a great deal of knowledge and be more interested in stirring the pot vs providing you with answers.you figure that out on your own.
iow, trolling. If you are purposefully trying to play ignorant, you're doing a fine job of it.

Light is actually fiarly slow.its takes over 14 billion years to cross the known universe. Thats pretty damn slow. but reaction at a distance occurs instantly.
Already explained to you. And it's "action at a distance," not "reaction at a distance."

How do you know it is the fastest thing in the universe ? did it ever occur to you that just maybe something else is faster. Hmmm just maybe ? could this be the crux of our issues with resolving quantum mechanics "if it is correct in the first place" and atomic level up physics. when you assume a constant arbitrarily "like einstien did" you put a big giant fix in the middle of the math.
What if jackalopes had wings too? Ever consider that?

what creates waves in photon motion ?
It's a fundamental property of particles and our universe that just is. Drop a pebble in a pond and you get a wave motion. Sound travels in waves.

You're asking a question that's akin to wondering why water is wet. Answering that question is not fundamental to understanding or explaining water.

LOLZ. they aren't dumb questions. they are questions which adress our basic lack of understanding of the underlying layers of the universe.
The problem is that it implies a faulty assumption - that without knowing absolutely everything we can't understand anything at all or that our knowledge must be wrong.

ahh yes the gravity particle. Well do you find it odd that when you put more energy in you get more energetic particles comming out. Maybe what the data really says is.

If you put more energy in. Your get more energy out. But that would be far to obvious. the standard model has yet to resolve anything.
It's not the gravity particle. The Higgs boson allegedly mediates mass, not gravity.

As far as putting energy in, the energy is required because particles like the Higgs boson are massive. Particle physicists are essentially creating mass from energy. (You know, e=mc2) In order to create them a huge amount of energy must be used.

Space time. what a novel concept. for instance lets remove time.

now we are left with space. what is it ? What is it made of ? does it have mass. does it exist as energy ? Is it binary ? is it organized ?

Time is relatively speaking a human paradigm based on out own perecptions.

time is change over distance. nothing more.

time is a human perecption.
First off, you tend to ge bogged down in philosophical considerations and not actual scientific questions.

Secondly, there's no point in removing time from space unless you're trying to consider another universe that is not our own. Without it space would not exist in the first place because nothing would have ever expanded. Without time none of us would be here so it's NOT just some human paradigm. The only thing human about time is the word we ascribe to it.
 
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