Interesting op/ed piece on the bigotry surrounding the anti gay marriage issue.

Gaard

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Feb 17, 2002
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(registration required...I'll just copy the whole thing here)

Stolen Kisses
By BOB HERBERT

n the film "Cinema Paradiso" a priest previews each movie that is to be shown in a small Italian town and orders the removal of all kissing scenes. Near the end of the film, the main character, a man named Salvatore who had been a small boy at the time the priest exercised his powers of censorship, is given a film reel in which all the deleted kisses have been restored. He watches, profoundly moved, as one couple after another gives physical expression to their mutual love.

In the magic of movie-making we can sometimes recapture the intimacy that is lost to misguided and intolerant customs and policies. Real life is another matter.

In the United States, many people are still uncomfortable with the idea of two men holding hands (unless it's in a football huddle) or two women kissing. Sex between people of the same gender remains a major taboo. And the notion of gay marriage, viewed as an abomination by a huge swath of the electorate, is threatening to become a decisive element in the presidential campaign.

In a country that is quick to celebrate the rights of the individual and the ideals of freedom, real tolerance is often hard to come by.

One of the particularly absurd arguments against allowing gays to marry is that such a lapse would send us skidding down that dreadful slope to legalization of incest, polygamy, bestiality and so forth.

In an interview last spring with The Associated Press, Senator Rick Santorum, a Pennsylvania Republican, said we'll be on that slope if the courts even tolerate homosexual acts. Referring to the U.S. Supreme Court's consideration of a challenge to a Texas anti-sodomy law, the senator said, "And if the Supreme Court says that you have a right to [gay] consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything."

That line of thinking reminded me of a passage in Randall Kennedy's book, "Interracial Intimacies: Sex, Marriage, Identity, and Adoption." In a 19th-century miscegenation case, a black man in Tennessee was charged with criminal fornication. The man's defense was that the woman, who was white, was his wife. They had been married lawfully in another state.

"That argument," wrote Mr. Kennedy, "was rejected by the Tennessee Supreme Court, which maintained that its acceptance would necessarily lead to condoning `the father living with his daughter . . . in lawful wedlock,' " and "the Turk being allowed to `establish his harem at the doors of the capitol.' " We have a tendency to prohibit things simply because we don't like them. Because they don't appeal to us. They don't feel quite right. Or we've never done it that way before. And when things don't feel quite right, when they make us uncomfortable, we often leap, with no basis in fact, to the conclusion that they are unnatural, immoral, degenerate, against the will of God.

And then the persecution begins.

I find a special irony in the high level of opposition among blacks to gay marriage.

When the U.S. Supreme Court, in the deliciously titled Loving v. Virginia case, finally ruled that laws prohibiting interracial marriage were unconstitutional, 16 states, including Virginia, still had such laws on the books. That was in 1967, at the height of the war in Vietnam and three years after the Beatles had launched their spectacular assault on American-style rock 'n' roll.

In the Loving case a mixed-race married couple was charged with violating Virginia's Racial Integrity Act. The judge who sentenced the couple wrote:

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangements there would be no cause for [interracial] marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

Now we're told that he doesn't want gays to marry. That there is something unnatural about the whole idea of men marrying men and women marrying women. That it's abhorrent to much of the population, just as interracial marriages were (and to many, still are) abhorrent.

We need to get a grip.
 

Romans828

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Feb 14, 2004
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That there is something unnatural about the whole idea of men marrying men and women marrying women.


HELLO, there is something "unnatural" , the op/ed piece is worthless dribble
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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One of the particularly absurd arguments against allowing gays to marry is that such a lapse would send us skidding down that dreadful slope to legalization of incest, polygamy, bestiality and so forth.
If it is absurd, then tell us why, instead of providing another example of a law that prohibits something as archaic as prohibiting interracial marriage and Santorum quotes...

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: alchemize
One of the particularly absurd arguments against allowing gays to marry is that such a lapse would send us skidding down that dreadful slope to legalization of incest, polygamy, bestiality and so forth.
If it is absurd, then tell us why, instead of providing another example of a law that prohibits something as archaic as prohibiting interracial marriage and Santorum quotes...

The same arguements were used then, that's the absurdity. They are mere Red Herrings meant to scare people from change.
 

BugsBunny1078

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Jan 11, 2004
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Well in NH the one law that prohibits a man from marrying another man is the same exact staute ( the same sentence even) that prohibits a man marrying his own mother. So as a matter of fact lif that law was ever deemed unconstitutional then incest marriages would also be part of the picture. I don;t see how anyone could even argue differently.
 
Aug 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: alchemize
One of the particularly absurd arguments against allowing gays to marry is that such a lapse would send us skidding down that dreadful slope to legalization of incest, polygamy, bestiality and so forth.
If it is absurd, then tell us why, instead of providing another example of a law that prohibits something as archaic as prohibiting interracial marriage and Santorum quotes...

Then we should cut it off at the head of it all - ban all marriages. Heterosexual marriages can lead to the legalization of bestiality, too.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
Well in NH the one law that prohibits a man from marrying another man is the same exact staute ( the same sentence even) that prohibits a man marrying his own mother. So as a matter of fact lif that law was ever deemed unconstitutional then incest marriages would also be part of the picture. I don;t see how anyone could even argue differently.

Obviously that law would need to be rewritten then. Another Red Herring, since the idea of all else being acceptable and this particular law proving it is a disingenuous comparison, since the law was written in such a way to make it so. Doesn't prove that allowing X leads to Y.
 

Gaard

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Feb 17, 2002
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Listen to these guys.
(not actual quotes)
"The 'definition' states a man and a woman...therefore gay marriages are out of the question."
"It's against God...'nuf said"
"The way the sentence is written, if gay marriages are allowed then incest is ok...so there."

Why can't you guys just come out and say it..."Fvck the homos."

No, Dari, not literally.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
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Originally posted by: Gaard
Listen to these guys.
(not actual quotes)
"The 'definition' states a man and a woman...therefore gay marriages are out of the question."
"It's against God...'nuf said"
"The way the sentence is written, if gay marriages are allowed then incest is ok...so there."

Why can't you guys just come out and say it..."Fvck the homos."

No, Dari, not literally.
Gaard,

I'm still on the fence on this issue. Trust me, I don't hate homosexuals. I work with some, I'm related to some. You'd have to ask them if I treat them any differently.

I'm just asking for some justification on how it is different than the other sexual behaviors. The only justifiable argument (that nobody has offerred yet) would be that homosexuals are born that way, and therefore have no choice. Whereas polygamists or incestualists would not be.

Homosexuality is a) by choice or b) by some genetic reason. Which is it? If it is by choice, then I don't believe we can grant rights to one group of people (hetero, homosexuals) and exclude another (polygamists, incestualists) purely based on their choice of sexual activities. Or, if it is by choice, and we can legislate poylygamist and incestualists, then we also can legislate homosexuals.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Bottom line, if the parties involved are consenting adults, then I don't have a problem with gay marriage, polygamy, or incest. I'm all for equal rights, anyone who is not is simply an irrational hateful bigot.
 

Romans828

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Feb 14, 2004
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Originally posted by: Corn
Bottom line, if the parties involved are consenting adults, then I don't have a problem with gay marriage, polygamy, or incest. I'm all for equal rights, anyone who is not is simply an irrational hateful bigot.



Well at least you have the courage to admit it (that polyagmy and incest) should be included.

However the arguement that "equal rights" should extend to behaviors judged to be unacceptable to society at large is insane IMO. All the things you mention are or should be illegal. Joining equal rights to illegal activities now thats intresting.

In all due respect, your definition of "equal rights" with respect to determining who qualifies as a "hateful bigot" is not worthy of serious consideration since in your definition its only about "rights" and is intolerant of opposing view points, dare I say "bigoted".
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Originally posted by: Corn
Bottom line, if the parties involved are consenting adults, then I don't have a problem with gay marriage, polygamy, or incest. I'm all for equal rights, anyone who is not is simply an irrational hateful bigot.
I'm also for bestiality as long as the animal is of the opposite sex. Oh wait, I never heard of same sex bestiality.

Bigots can think of anything, but they can't think too deep.

Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Gaard
Listen to these guys.
(not actual quotes)
"The 'definition' states a man and a woman...therefore gay marriages are out of the question."
"It's against God...'nuf said"
"The way the sentence is written, if gay marriages are allowed then incest is ok...so there."

Why can't you guys just come out and say it..."Fvck the homos."

No, Dari, not literally.
Gaard,

I'm still on the fence on this issue. Trust me, I don't hate homosexuals. I work with some, I'm related to some. You'd have to ask them if I treat them any differently.

I'm just asking for some justification on how it is different than the other sexual behaviors. The only justifiable argument (that nobody has offerred yet) would be that homosexuals are born that way, and therefore have no choice. Whereas polygamists or incestualists would not be.

Homosexuality is a) by choice or b) by some genetic reason. Which is it? If it is by choice, then I don't believe we can grant rights to one group of people (hetero, homosexuals) and exclude another (polygamists, incestualists) purely based on their choice of sexual activities. Or, if it is by choice, and we can legislate poylygamist and incestualists, then we also can legislate homosexuals.

This is an easy question to answer. Just go out tonight and sleep with a guy. Tell me if you like it and think you're falling in love. If you can we'll know it's choice. Bigots can think anything, they just can't think too deep. It's always the other guy who's weak. RIIIIIIGHT!

 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
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Bottom line, if the parties involved are consenting adults, then I don't have a problem with gay marriage, polygamy, or incest. I'm all for equal rights, anyone who is not is simply an irrational hateful bigot.

You are a Oxymoron! :D It doesn't hurt me so why not...? Moral decline!

Furthermore gays are discriminated against. They can get married anytime they want and alot do but to the opposite sex. :D :D I heard that from a lesbian on our local radio call in show it was priceless!

BTW: that Homosexual on LENO, Ross I think his name is, is freaking funny as heck! He doesn't realize people are laughing at him except Tim Robbins who let him hold his Oscar!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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PS.....I had so wanted, however, that my Mrs. Little Bo Peep, my wifey sheep get my social security when I pass over.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,416
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Originally posted by: EXman
Bottom line, if the parties involved are consenting adults, then I don't have a problem with gay marriage, polygamy, or incest. I'm all for equal rights, anyone who is not is simply an irrational hateful bigot.

You are a Oxymoron! :D It doesn't hurt me so why not...? Moral decline!

Furthermore gays are discriminated against. They can get married anytime they want and alot do but to the opposite sex. :D :D I heard that from a lesbian on our local radio call in show it was priceless!

BTW: that Homosexual on LENO, Ross I think his name is, is freaking funny as heck! He doesn't realize people are laughing at him except Tim Robbins who let him hold his Oscar!

Sorry, Corn is just being honest. You are an irrational bigot and you can demonstrate that to us by defining 'moral decline' and why that would be the result.

In calling Corn an oxymoron you self define. Make a rational case for moral decline or accept that you're a bigot.

I can, however save you the trouble. You don't know what moral decline is but you are sure it will happen. :D Actually the moral decline already happened. You have failed to exercize your moral responsibility to think.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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I'm also for bestiality as long as the animal is of the opposite sex. Oh wait, I never heard of same sex bestiality.

Sorry, but I disagree. Animals, like our children, do not have the capability to knowingly consent to sexual activity.
 

Moonbeam

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Nov 24, 1999
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Originally posted by: Corn
I'm also for bestiality as long as the animal is of the opposite sex. Oh wait, I never heard of same sex bestiality.

Sorry, but I disagree. Animals, like our children, do not have the capability to knowingly consent to sexual activity.
I made that exact point some few threads back. Just amusing myself by exercizing a capacity to see things from different angles. Just demonstrating that for every absurd argument there's a way to demonstrate that.

 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Just demonstrating that for every absurd argument there's a way to demonstrate that.

Which absurd argument are you referring to? I certainly hope it isn't my initial post on this topic. It is my belief that what consenting adults do is their own business. For the most part that is the law of the land:

We certainly don't prohibit single persons from dating multiple partners--yet when we introduce the term "marriage" into that mix, suddenly it's taboo.

Why should one group of so-called "sexual deviants" (I don't particularly like the use of that term, but can't really think of something as descrpitive yet less inflammatory) be granted rights the other's do not? As long as all involved are consenting adults, I certainly don't see the problem.

You're not a bigot are you Moonie?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Corn
I'm also for bestiality as long as the animal is of the opposite sex. Oh wait, I never heard of same sex bestiality.

Sorry, but I disagree. Animals, like our children, do not have the capability to knowingly consent to sexual activity.
I made that exact point some few threads back. Just amusing myself by exercizing a capacity to see things from different angles. Just demonstrating that for every absurd argument there's a way to demonstrate that.

Any place I'm unconscious of what I feel I'm capable of bigorty. Regarding this thread, however, if you've read at all in others on the same topic you surly know my position. I was refering to the fact that I make the same point you did in another thread and sought a bit of variety. I agree with you on this and knew you'd agree with me.