Interesting Look at the Deaths in France's Heat Wave

[Amused]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: jahawkin

Originally posted by: Amused

Again, Jay, if running and owning an AC were affordable, people in France would have them just like people and hospitals in Maine and coastal CA have them. The fact of the matter is, they are NOT affordable to own and run, therefore they do not have them.

Great! You've shown your inability to understand the climate of another country. Much of France doesn't have AC because they don't need it. This is clear to anyone with a knowledge of climate and the climate of northern Europe. Does it make much sense to outfit a building with AC if you're not going to use it more than 5 times a year, if that??
Could you find some quotes or stats from French people saying "gee, we wish we could have AC, but the energy costs too much because of our evil socialist government." To pin the blaim of thousands of people dying due to a once a century heat wave on high energy tax is asinine.

Jay, I understand perfectly. You, on the other hand, have an ideology to protect and cannot bring yourself to admit that punitive energy taxes brought on by socialist policy and tree hugging bullsh!t cost thousands of lives in France.

AC is a luxury the majority of people, ALL businesses and ALL hospitals in the US have. EVEN IN OUR NORTHERN MOST STATES. This is a fact you cannot deny. What makes them different than the people in France? The ability to afford the units, and the energy to run them. Period.

The post by Ornery after yours only proves my point, and destroys yours.

the funny thing about this thread is that the "American experts" are bulshitting about the evil socialist Chiraq while he's not even a socialist. Chiraq is a right winger.

FACT for the last time. Most West and Northern Europeans don't have a/c because we don't need it. Got it. Is that so hard to understand?????? I actually live here and the last time it was so hot for a such a long time was in 1976.

It has nothing to do with cost or anything

-- keep chanting your mantra "USA n° 1, USA n°1" --

Whether or not Chirac is a socialist or not is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, France has a great many socialist policies in place, and extremely high taxes to fund them.

Now, the point HAS been proven that AC is found even in the northern most US states, not because they are "needed" but because they make the few days a year it gets hot, comfortable. My AC runs any day it gets over 80 degrees. The point ALSO has been proven that the reason more people and HOSPITALS in France do not have AC is because of prohibitive costs, and a frowning on of energy use... made punitive by very high energy taxes.

Next time, read the whole thread before you make an ass of yourself.

you really have no clue.

For the last time. We don't have a/c because we don't need it. An Alaskan summer is warmer then a typical summer in Paris.
Lay down the crack pipe. This has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism or the cost of a/c. The typical summer temperature in Paris is around 22-25 °C. Every summer they have some days that the temperature reaches 30°C. You didn't heard of these deaths last year or the year before did you? What makes this summer so special that is been extremely hot for WEEKS. Got that ??? WEEKS not DAYS. It's been exceptionally warm in the whole of Europe since last may. For weeks at an end it was at least 30°C EVERY DAY and we had a couple of days where the temperature reached 40°C.

The only thing proven is that you are making an ass of yourself because you have no frigging clue what you are talking about.

Some of you have to do something about that sick obsession about France. This is probably the 6th thread about the stupid heatwave and these threads are only started to some French bashing.

Continue the flagwaving and look more and more like an obsessed dork
You are already doing a good job.

It's sad that you have to resort to so many insults to prop up your failed argument. As so many others in this thread have proven without a doubt, the reason ACs are so rare is not because people don't want them, but because the cost is prohibitive. No flag waving here, as I'm upset at our own energy taxes. In fact, I have no idea why the hell you'd think my opinion of France or Europe in general wouold have anything to do with flag waving.

No, no flag waving here. If you weren't on such an anti-US kick, you'd notice that.

I HAVE a clue, Geeks. And that clue is: It's uncomfortable in ANY house when the temps rise above 80 degrees on a breezeless day with moderate humidity. And I know it does this with regularity in much of central and southern Europe, including France.

BTW, to say Alaska is warmer in summer than Paris is just pure BS.

The only asses here, Geeks, is you and Jay. Both of you want high tax socialism to work so much, you're willing to deny that it is anathema to freedom and comfort.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: jahawkin

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: jahawkin

You still have no clue of climate. EVEN IN OUR MOST NORTHERN STATES, the climate is warmer in the summer than it is in Paris. Maine, North Dakota, Vermont all have warmer summers than Paris does.

Average highest summer temperatures of various cities-

Paris, France: 75F
Caribou, Maine: 76F
Burlington, Vermont: 81F
Seattle, Washington: 76F

One degree warmer in Seattle and Caribou, and six warmer in Burlington. I can't imagine that would make a really appreciable difference.

Edit: Just for interest...

Pt. Barrow, Alaska: 47F

It is, after all, our "MOST NORTHERN STATE". I should also note that Weather.com is *painful* to navigate.

The term "NORTHERN MOST STATES" was coined by Amused and he was referring to the contiguous US, I believe. And one degree, when talking about climatic averages, is significant.
And ya, weather.com sucks...Quite sloooowwww...

Jay, why are you holding on to this so desperately? Why is it so hard to admit that high taxation, and an emphasis on energy conservation has led to a serious lack of AC in Europe?

 

[jahawkin]

Amused asks (from earlier in the thread)

Why do people in Maine have AC? Why do people in the American Northwest have AC?

and

Again, Jay, if running and owning an AC were affordable, people in France would have them just like people and hospitals in Maine and coastal CA have them.

and

Now, the point HAS been proven that AC is found even in the northern most US states, not because they are "needed" but because they make the few days a year it gets hot, comfortable.

When in fact not everyone in the West and Northeast have AC.
A majority of homes in the West do NOT have AC. 35% of the people in the Northeast don't have AC. Now why would that be if energy costs are so low here in the US??

The theory that higher energy taxes lead to less AC access is bullsh!t - if it were true, one would expect:
-More than 42% of homes in the western US would have AC.
-There would be more AC in Europe in countries with lower energy taxes. One would see a difference between France and Germany in AC usage because France has an additional 20% tax on energy that Germany does not have.

But this is not the case, so it is clear that there are other, more important factors in determining AC use in an area. Climate and lifestyle are two primary factors. You have yet to prove that AC use is low in Europe as a direct result of high taxes.

And you're a fool to say this:

It's uncomfortable in ANY house when the temps rise above 80 degrees on a breezeless day with moderate humidity. And I know it does this with regularity in much of central and southern Europe, including France.

No its not!! I've lived 6 years here in Wisconsin without any AC, and its very easy to keep my place cool. Its called using fans and shading the sun. It got up into the 90s here today and my room has been pleasant all day long.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: jahawkin
Amused asks (from earlier in the thread)

Why do people in Maine have AC? Why do people in the American Northwest have AC?

and

Again, Jay, if running and owning an AC were affordable, people in France would have them just like people and hospitals in Maine and coastal CA have them.

and

Now, the point HAS been proven that AC is found even in the northern most US states, not because they are "needed" but because they make the few days a year it gets hot, comfortable.

When in fact not everyone in the West and Northeast have AC.
A majority of homes in the West do NOT have AC. 35% of the people in the Northeast don't have AC. Now why would that be if energy costs are so low here in the US??

The theory that higher energy taxes lead to less AC access is bullsh!t - if it were true, one would expect:
-More than 42% of homes in the western US would have AC.
-There would be more AC in Europe in countries with lower energy taxes. One would see a difference between France and Germany in AC usage because France has an additional 20% tax on energy that Germany does not have.

But this is not the case, so it is clear that there are other, more important factors in determining AC use in an area. Climate and lifestyle are two primary factors. You have yet to prove that AC use is low in Europe as a direct result of high taxes.

And you're a fool to say this:

It's uncomfortable in ANY house when the temps rise above 80 degrees on a breezeless day with moderate humidity. And I know it does this with regularity in much of central and southern Europe, including France.

No its not!! I've lived 6 years here in Wisconsin without any AC, and its very easy to keep my place cool. Its called using fans and shading the sun. It got up into the 90s here today and my room has been pleasant all day long.

Maybe you like to sweat like a little tree hugging Green Peace freak in 90 degree weather, Jay. I don't. And tell me, Jay, how many hospitals in the west and northeast don't have AC? I challange you to find me just one hospital without AC. Just one.

Did you even READ the article Ornery posted about AC units in Europe? Or did you choose to ignore that to keep your little denial game going?

And if you think Germany's electricity costs and taxes are as low as the US, you're mistaken.

I'm a fool to be uncomfortable in a hot, humid house Jay? You really are desperate, aren't you?

Oh, and Jay, the majority of homes without AC in the west have swamp coolers (water evaporation coolers... only good in dry arid climates). If you knew anything about the southwest, you'd know that.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: jahawkin

Originally posted by: Amused

Again, Jay, if running and owning an AC were affordable, people in France would have them just like people and hospitals in Maine and coastal CA have them. The fact of the matter is, they are NOT affordable to own and run, therefore they do not have them.

Great! You've shown your inability to understand the climate of another country. Much of France doesn't have AC because they don't need it. This is clear to anyone with a knowledge of climate and the climate of northern Europe. Does it make much sense to outfit a building with AC if you're not going to use it more than 5 times a year, if that??
Could you find some quotes or stats from French people saying "gee, we wish we could have AC, but the energy costs too much because of our evil socialist government." To pin the blaim of thousands of people dying due to a once a century heat wave on high energy tax is asinine.

Jay, I understand perfectly. You, on the other hand, have an ideology to protect and cannot bring yourself to admit that punitive energy taxes brought on by socialist policy and tree hugging bullsh!t cost thousands of lives in France.

AC is a luxury the majority of people, ALL businesses and ALL hospitals in the US have. EVEN IN OUR NORTHERN MOST STATES. This is a fact you cannot deny. What makes them different than the people in France? The ability to afford the units, and the energy to run them. Period.

The post by Ornery after yours only proves my point, and destroys yours.

the funny thing about this thread is that the "American experts" are bulshitting about the evil socialist Chiraq while he's not even a socialist. Chiraq is a right winger.

FACT for the last time. Most West and Northern Europeans don't have a/c because we don't need it. Got it. Is that so hard to understand?????? I actually live here and the last time it was so hot for a such a long time was in 1976.

It has nothing to do with cost or anything

-- keep chanting your mantra "USA n° 1, USA n°1" --

Whether or not Chirac is a socialist or not is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, France has a great many socialist policies in place, and extremely high taxes to fund them.

Now, the point HAS been proven that AC is found even in the northern most US states, not because they are "needed" but because they make the few days a year it gets hot, comfortable. My AC runs any day it gets over 80 degrees. The point ALSO has been proven that the reason more people and HOSPITALS in France do not have AC is because of prohibitive costs, and a frowning on of energy use... made punitive by very high energy taxes.

Next time, read the whole thread before you make an ass of yourself.

you really have no clue.

For the last time. We don't have a/c because we don't need it. An Alaskan summer is warmer then a typical summer in Paris.
Lay down the crack pipe. This has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism or the cost of a/c. The typical summer temperature in Paris is around 22-25 °C. Every summer they have some days that the temperature reaches 30°C. You didn't heard of these deaths last year or the year before did you? What makes this summer so special that is been extremely hot for WEEKS. Got that ??? WEEKS not DAYS. It's been exceptionally warm in the whole of Europe since last may. For weeks at an end it was at least 30°C EVERY DAY and we had a couple of days where the temperature reached 40°C.

The only thing proven is that you are making an ass of yourself because you have no frigging clue what you are talking about.

Some of you have to do something about that sick obsession about France. This is probably the 6th thread about the stupid heatwave and these threads are only started to some French bashing.

Continue the flagwaving and look more and more like an obsessed dork
You are already doing a good job.

It's sad that you have to resort to so many insults to prop up your failed argument. As so many others in this thread have proven without a doubt, the reason ACs are so rare is not because people don't want them, but because the cost is prohibitive. No flag waving here, as I'm upset at our own energy taxes. In fact, I have no idea why the hell you'd think my opinion of France or Europe in general wouold have anything to do with flag waving.

No, no flag waving here. If you weren't on such an anti-US kick, you'd notice that.

I HAVE a clue, Geeks. And that clue is: It's uncomfortable in ANY house when the temps rise above 80 degrees on a breezeless day with moderate humidity. And I know it does this with regularity in much of central and southern Europe, including France.

BTW, to say Alaska is warmer in summer than Paris is just pure BS.

The only asses here, Geeks, is you and Jay. Both of you want high tax socialism to work so much, you're willing to deny that it is anathema to freedom and comfort.

dude I live in a country where there is more freedom then in the USA.
give me an example of a freedom we don't have where I live and that you have. I can at least give you 2 "freedoms" that we enjoy and you don't have.

btw what do you know about living in a high tax socialist country???

 

[Roadraider]

Originally posted by: Cyberian

Originally posted by: Roadraider

75F in Greece or Italy is a relatively cool temp. 75F in England is a hot-as-$hit day where everybody gets out to sunbathe and gets red all over in 20 minutes. 75F in Chicago is a comfortable day where you hardly sweat, let alone get really hot. 75F is pretty much the highest people in Paris get to experience -normally. For those wondering, an aspect of the differences in geographic locations has to do with the distance from the sun. I am from Greece where 120F is very common during summer (has always been and people are still dying after 5000 years) yet, I can tell you for a fact that 75F in England burns your skin like worse than hot candle being poured on you! I was stunned the first time I experienced that.

Given the distance from the earth to the sun, would those relatively few miles really make a difference?

Few miles???? You are talking about 100s of miles and yes, it makes a heck of a difference. Why do you think Germany that's only 2-3 countries north of Greece has 25 degrees cooler weather on average and 30 degrees cooler winters? Same in the USA. Compare temperatures of Illinois vs Alabama, a world of difference.

 

[Roadraider]

Just to keep this going, you are all missing the differences in the heating and air conditioning systems in Europe. In the USA there are integrated forced-air systems for heat and adding an air conditioning unit is quite easy although not as cheap as people would like to think (units cost $400 upwards depending on size of home + installation + modifications if there is no provision in the existng system).

European systems are very different. I have never seen any forced-air systems anywhere is Europe. They use radiant heat systems which involve a gas burner and a series of thin pipes (1.5" diam) leading to radiant heaters. These are MUCH more efficient than forced air systems but have no way of being adapted for air conditioning (again, because historically there has not been a need for them).

Adding AC in Europe though is quite easy, you buy a wall-mountable (or window unit) which can cover quite a large area. These go for about 200 Euros (~ $190) and installation is 30 minutes without any additional pipes or other work other than a small hall in the wall/window. These can easily handle most size apartments and about 1/2 of a bigger house (so you'll need 2 for a whole house). The example of the French old man paying $1700 is an extreme of some sucker being taken for a ride because of supply/demand situation and a seller that riped him off!

As for the VAT (Value Added Tax) it is Europe's term for tax (you pay a single tax in Europe in contrast with the USA where you pay Federal, State, County, City, Municipal, Equipment adjustment, Universal Service Fees, the-mayor-needs-more-money-fees, etc...). Yes, the tax in Europe is higher than the USA (typically 18%) but they don't get double & triple taxed on things or pay Federal AND State taxes AND City taxes. Nor do they pay anywhere as high property taxes, extraneous utility fees or 25 tolls per day (welcome to Chicago, that'll be $0.50). Total taxation on income is much lower in most European countries than in the USA.

When I used to live in Europe my monthly heating costs were about $60-$70/month. Over here I am paying close to $200 a month and that does not include the firewood I am burning most nights!!!

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: Roadraider



Few miles???? You are talking about 100s of miles and yes, it makes a heck of a difference. Why do you think Germany that's only 2-3 countries north of Greece has 25 degrees cooler weather on average and 30 degrees cooler winters? Same in the USA. Compare temperatures of Illinois vs Alabama, a world of difference.

It's not the small difference in the distance to the sun, it's the amount of daylight recieved. Here is the data on the distance from the earth to the sun:

Maximum distance from Sun: 152,100,000 km
Minimum distance from Sun: 147,100,000 km

If 100 miles made that much of a difference, we'd go from cinders to ice sicle each year.