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Interesting financial article: "Can America Save Itself?".

dud

Diamond Member
While conducting my daily financial research I came across this very interesting article which pretty much represents how I personally have been feeling about "US" as a country. I see it in many of the financials:we spend too much and most people (like the country as a whole) are in debt up to their eye brows, basing their purchases today on hoped-for future income. Here is the article:


We're a Nation Helpless to Save Ourselves


"In short, if profligacy is a disease, then we've managed it mighty well, and why should we believe that after all this time it's finally going to hurt us? For at least a couple of reasons. One, the cultural trend has been running in one direction for a long time now, toward greater glorification of spending and acceptance of borrowing. Saving may be a virtue, but it's just not cool. After years of decline, our savings rate is down around 1% of income, the world's lowest. That marks a genuine difference with the past, and it's cumulative: The longer it goes on, the harder to escape it becomes.

Two, the aging of the baby-boomers creates unique financial stresses. America's most pampered and self-obsessed generation hasn't prepared itself for retirement and, as usual, expects someone else to bail it out. Trouble is, succeeding generations aren't big enough or rich enough to handle the job. That's a new conflict.

None of that means the dollar must tank or interest rates explode, as some fear. The unwinding could be far more gradual. The result, years from now, could be Americans paying unimagined portions of their income to cover their parents' and their own debts (personal and national) and to pay interest and dividends to the foreigners who financed our long shopping spree. That experience could even be as traumatic as the Depression was for an earlier generation and lead, as it did then, to a generation of champion savers and investors.

That is, America could come out stronger?eventually. I believe it always does. The question is how much pain we'll need to turn us around. Right now it's looking like a lot."



I hope and pray that soon, very soon, our country (as a whole) will collectively wake up and get our financial households in order.

 
I think our financial system is set up for collapse. Too much money is leaving this country. China and India are the ones making money for the products we buy. Have you noticed how their economy has been booming lately? Have you noticed how ours isn't?

The common people in this country are not making more money. The rich are, but they don't need to live here. They're rich- they'll be rich anywhere, they have no need to be an American to be rich. The common people, however, do. Chinese workers are making money and American execs are making money. But sooner or later the Chinese and Indians will realize that they do not need to work for an American corporation, and they'll begin working for their own. At that point, America will be completely bypassed, and neither the common worker nor the rich businessman will be earning anything. The rich guy is rich, he can move anywhere. That will leave the common man with nothing.

Of course I don't think it will be a total collapse, only a partial collapse. One interesting thing that happens is that when people lose enough money, they get angry. Then the population will become more nationalistic and discriminatory against other countries' products, and things will level off. Before people lose everything they'll wake up and realize that drastic times call for drastic measures.
 
Originally posted by: dud
I hope and pray that soon, very soon, our country (as a whole) will collectively wake up and get our financial households in order.

I hope and pray

Oh the irony :laugh:
 
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I think our financial system is set up for collapse. Too much money is leaving this country. China and India are the ones making money for the products we buy. Have you noticed how their economy has been booming lately? Have you noticed how ours isn't?

The common people in this country are not making more money. The rich are, but they don't need to live here. They're rich- they'll be rich anywhere, they have no need to be an American to be rich. The common people, however, do. Chinese workers are making money and American execs are making money. But sooner or later the Chinese and Indians will realize that they do not need to work for an American corporation, and they'll begin working for their own. At that point, America will be completely bypassed, and neither the common worker nor the rich businessman will be earning anything. The rich guy is rich, he can move anywhere. That will leave the common man with nothing.

Of course I don't think it will be a total collapse, only a partial collapse. One interesting thing that happens is that when people lose enough money, they get angry. Then the population will become more nationalistic and discriminatory against other countries' products, and things will level off. Before people lose everything they'll wake up and realize that drastic times call for drastic measures.

Eh...these types of articles have been written for years. A lot of it is exaggerated, but there is some truth to it.
 
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I think our financial system is set up for collapse. Too much money is leaving this country. China and India are the ones making money for the products we buy. Have you noticed how their economy has been booming lately? Have you noticed how ours isn't?

The common people in this country are not making more money. The rich are, but they don't need to live here. They're rich- they'll be rich anywhere, they have no need to be an American to be rich. The common people, however, do. Chinese workers are making money and American execs are making money. But sooner or later the Chinese and Indians will realize that they do not need to work for an American corporation, and they'll begin working for their own. At that point, America will be completely bypassed, and neither the common worker nor the rich businessman will be earning anything. The rich guy is rich, he can move anywhere. That will leave the common man with nothing.

Of course I don't think it will be a total collapse, only a partial collapse. One interesting thing that happens is that when people lose enough money, they get angry. Then the population will become more nationalistic and discriminatory against other countries' products, and things will level off. Before people lose everything they'll wake up and realize that drastic times call for drastic measures.


this will never happen, dont you think big business like mcdonalds,etc. said"what happens when we get a bad name, and people move up the social chain". The sume rule applies over there
 
Too many people think they're entitled to some sort of life of luxury. Credit card companies spam us college students in hopes to get us into debt as young as possible. I was raised to know better. I'm 21 and I'm already looking into investing into roth IRA, mutual funds and 401k. I won't ever buy a luxury car -- Honda Civics will do. I'm not going to buy a huge house unless I can pay for it with ease all at once.
 
I just basically hate most of the people on the planet. It's not "can the US save itself", it's "How long until we kill ourselves?" Humanity is like a teenager: old enough to cause real damage and too stupid to prevent it or do anything about it.
 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I just basically hate most of the people on the planet. It's not "can the US save itself", it's "How long until we kill ourselves?" Humanity is like a teenager: old enough to cause real damage and too stupid to prevent it or do anything about it.

Couldn't have summed it up any better. Most people are too dumb, lazy, and have an overinflated sense of entitlement to protect themselves.

They do it in eating. They do it in spending. They fail to do it in savings.

They are going to fall fast and fall hard.
 
I really worry about this. Americans as a whole have no forward thinking or accountability anymore.

Social Security, foreign oil dependence and other major problems could be solved if we would just endure a little pain right now. But everyone wants to just shove it off to be cleaned up in the future, just like they do with their personal finances. Its like the baby boomers are counting on dying before the sh|t his the fan. Unfortunately, I probably don't have that luxury.

I think I like Bush's social security reform idea...not because its a good idea, but because it screws old people.

Its probably just a chicken little perspective but I really wonder sometimes. We've steadily been moving further and further away from trends of responsibility and accountability. The next generation certainly doesn't seem any better. Something's gotta give eventually.
 
I think this is the primary reason we went into the recession. Consumers saturated their credit limits during Bill's term (I'm not saying that's his fault though), then when 9/11 happened and the market lost confidence for a short time, people couldn't cope with it. If everybody had been nearly debt free at the time, our market would never have gotten hurt.
 
Originally posted by: SagaLore
I think this is the primary reason we went into the recession. Consumers saturated their credit limits during Bill's term (I'm not saying that's his fault though), then when 9/11 happened and the market lost confidence for a short time, people couldn't cope with it. If everybody had been nearly debt free at the time, our market would never have gotten hurt.

They certainly dug themselves a nice hole by thinking things would just keep getting better. But at the same time, I think a lot of people are still trying to maintain that lifestyle that they just plain cannot afford.
 
Originally posted by: Legend
Too many people think they're entitled to some sort of life of luxury. Credit card companies spam us college students in hopes to get us into debt as young as possible. I was raised to know better. I'm 21 and I'm already looking into investing into roth IRA, mutual funds and 401k. I won't ever buy a luxury car -- Honda Civics will do. I'm not going to buy a huge house unless I can pay for it with ease all at once.

At 21 I bought my first house. My parents renting their house and still trying to pay off their credit cards. They seem to forget that to do so you have to pay more than what you continue to spend on them...
 
All I can say is the financial houses of my parents and myself are all in order with ZERO debt. I myself am debt free and have been investing since I was 16.

What worries me is the fact that I pay into social security but will receive nothing in return because the rich, lazy politicians in Washington refuse to rock the boat. The spiraling national debt worries, but again, politicians on both sides refuse to do anything. But worst of all is the rapid decline of our education system. Nothing can be done with a dumb-fvck population.
 
If there is a nationwide correction in real estate values (has never happened yet, crosses fingers) we're in for a financial mega bubble bursting....

If you look at things like how much debit consumers have and consider that consumers have pulled the US out of previous economic downturns by increased spending, and the fact that the average consumer is riddled by debit right now from credit cards & stealing their own equity by refinancing their homes to pay off short term debit, any logical person should be concerned...

Here's the fatal error-they've taken out long term notes (15-30 years) to pay off short term debits on items that will not last 15-30 years. This logic is the same reason you should try to not purchase a home & finance the appliances (range/dishwasher/refrigerator) for 30 years because they don't have a long life compared to the mortgage.

The trick is that if you have lived frugally, and are positioned well, you can do well during an economic downturn. Have no/limited debit, a secure job, and take advantage of other's financial misfortunes...
 
You guys worry too much. It's just peices of paper, a legal construct, that can be adjusted, amortized, or nullified. What we have the land, the people, the assets is what counts. And that's an order of magnitude better than anyplace else IMO.
 
Originally posted by: Zebo
You guys worry too much. It's just peices of paper, a legal construct, that can be adjusted, amortized, or nullified. What we have the land, the people, the assets is what counts. And that's an order of magnitude better than anyplace else IMO.


So did Germany, the USSR, and the Roman Empire.

It's possible for a seemingly strong country to collapse. Usually from within, too.
 
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Its probably just a chicken little perspective but I really wonder sometimes. We've steadily been moving further and further away from trends of responsibility and accountability. The next generation certainly doesn't seem any better. Something's gotta give eventually.

That is the bottom line. And forgive my conservative tone, but that attitude to which you are referring was born out of liberalism, welfare state, political correctness, etc. The root of the "PC" movement is to shift burden from individuals to just about anyone else.

 
Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: SagaLore
I think this is the primary reason we went into the recession. Consumers saturated their credit limits during Bill's term (I'm not saying that's his fault though), then when 9/11 happened and the market lost confidence for a short time, people couldn't cope with it. If everybody had been nearly debt free at the time, our market would never have gotten hurt.

They certainly dug themselves a nice hole by thinking things would just keep getting better. But at the same time, I think a lot of people are still trying to maintain that lifestyle that they just plain cannot afford.

I hate to bring this up but in this thread but it needs to be brought up - another problem is that the typical family has two working spouses. I'm not saying that women shouldn't work (because the same can be said for men) - but when you add up the cost of two cars, insurance, day care, and other necessities (like cell phones, additional work clothes, etc.) you actually break even if not pay more to work. But that's not the point yet - children are brought up on needing "materials". Because they don't have a full time stay at home parent to raise them, often parents take the shortcut of just giving them everything they ask for - which is then taked for granted. This last generation of parents (majority) don't understand how to sacrafice some of these material extras, take it all for granted, and are teaching their kids bad life lessons.

When I was a kid, I got a few things for Christmas. Usually practical stuff like a new coat or clothes, or some hobby kit that I liked. My in-laws literally spend thousands of dollars on toys and knick knacks that get trashed within weeks - and if they don't have the money, they take out a loan, which is odd they can even do that considering they're on welfare and food stamps.
 
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

That is the bottom line. And forgive my conservative tone, but that attitude to which you are referring was born out of liberalism, welfar state, political correctness, etc. The root of the "PC" movement is to shift burden from individuals to just about anyone else.

I agree totally.

People have lost sight of the basics. They've goten lost in the details and don't realize what really matters anymore. They're stuck in the rat race, keeping up with the Jonses, Political Correctness, etc. They can no longer think outside the box and see where they're supposed to be.

 
While I agree that men should be eligible to be state-at-home-dads just as much as women, you wonder how many of our problems can be traced back to the 1960s, the free love movement, and the sexual revolution. This nation's decline started when BOTH parents decided to work, leaving the government schools to raise America's children in a half-ass manner, instead of having at least one, full-time parent to enforce right vs. wrong and other moral lessons. And speaking of government schools, instead of pushing math, english, and life skills like how to balance a checkbook, they decided that social experiments like sensitivity training, sex-ed, and anti-drug classes were more important.
 
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: Zebo
You guys worry too much. It's just peices of paper, a legal construct, that can be adjusted, amortized, or nullified. What we have the land, the people, the assets is what counts. And that's an order of magnitude better than anyplace else IMO.


So did Germany, the USSR, and the Roman Empire.

It's possible for a seemingly strong country to collapse. Usually from within, too.

By what mechanism is that going to happen? He sure did'nt explain it maybe you could.
 
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

That is the bottom line. And forgive my conservative tone, but that attitude to which you are referring was born out of liberalism, welfar state, political correctness, etc. The root of the "PC" movement is to shift burden from individuals to just about anyone else.



I agree totally.

People have lost sight of the basics. They've goten lost in the details and don't realize what really matters anymore. They're stuck in the rat race, keeping up with the Jonses, Political Correctness, etc. They can no longer think outside the box and see where they're supposed to be.

I'm currently working with a group of rat race victims, they're working 50-60 hours/week & looking for 2nd jobs to support their lifestyle.

One couple comes to mind that has a combined income of >$180K per year, they're buying a different house & the wife (they have 2 toddlers) is picking up a 2nd job in addition to her full time slot.

Me-owe <$70k on my home, cars paid for, no credit card debit, and I enjoy my time off from work mightily...

 
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