Interesting Column of the economics of sugar

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
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Government Against Its Citizens by Walter Willaims


Democrat Mary Landrieu's successful Louisiana senatorial race against Republican challenger Suzanne Haik Terrell highlights some of the less appreciated and uglier aspects of American politics. America's sugar producers contributed heavily to both candidates. In fact, the sugar lobby gives millions of dollars to both parties of the House of Representatives and the Senate. Why? Might it be the sugar businesses' civic interest in free elections and good government? Believing that would make you a prime candidate for a brain transplant.

Both Louisiana candidates criticized the rumored Bush administration trade agreement that would allow for greater imports of Mexican sugar. They said this would devastate the sugar industry.

Congress' sugar program already in force guarantees a minimum price to domestic sugar producers by restricting imports and buying and storing excess production that would otherwise depress market prices. As a result, Americans pay two and three times the world price for sugar. A report by the U.S. General Accounting Office estimated that Americans pay an extra $2 billion dollars a year because of the sugar program. Plus, taxpayers will pay two billion dollars over the next ten years to buy and store excess sugar.

Other losers are sugar-using industries such as confectioners who see their production costs driven up by Congress' sugar program. Since countries in Canada and Europe have no sugar industry, and little lobby pressure to drive up sugar prices, their confectioners become relatively more competitive. Then there's lost export earnings by poor nations in the Caribbean and elsewhere because our import restrictions.

You might wonder how this consumer rip-off sustains itself. After all the sugar industry beneficiaries are tiny in number while victims number in the tens of millions. The answer's simple. It's a classic example of an economic phenomenon know as "narrow, well-defined, large benefits and widely dispersed, small costs." Here's how it works. It pays workers and owners in the sugar industry to come up with millions of lobby dollars to pay congressmen to impose tariffs and quotas on foreign sugar. It means higher sugar prices and hence higher wages and profits. Plus, it's easy to organize the small number of people in the sugar industry.

That's the benefit side but as sure as day follows night there's a cost side. Tens of millions of American families are forced to pay a little bit more, maybe $20, for the sugar we use every year. Since sugar is just a tiny fraction of our lives, we rightly conclude it's not worth the cost of trying to unseat a legislator whose vote cost us $20. There's a more insidious side of this story. In the past some sugar-using companies have found out they can import products like ice tea, distill out its sugar content and still beat the high prices caused by Congress' protectionist sugar policy. To do so was made illegal. Then there's the pot calling the kettle black side of the issue. During Mary Landrieu's campaign, she criticized President Bush's tariffs on foreign steel for costing thousands of jobs in steel-using industries. The heck with whether sugar tariffs cost jobs in the confectionery and other sugar-using industries.

You might say, "What's the beef Williams? I don't mind paying $20 more for the sugar I use!" It's not just the sugar industry that uses Congress to extract higher wages and profits. According to the Institute for International Economics, trade barriers cost American consumers $80 billion a year or more than $1,200 per family.
 

rgwalt

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2000
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Very interesting... esp the part about distilling the sugar out of imported iced tea...

Ryan
 

Dudd

Platinum Member
Aug 3, 2001
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Ah yes, it's nice to see how easily our politicians can be bribed. Anyways, how are we able to get around NAFTA to keep out Mexican suger imports?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: Dudd
Ah yes, it's nice to see how easily our politicians can be bribed. Anyways, how are we able to get around NAFTA to keep out Mexican suger imports?

The US finds, or should I say "just does", a way to circumvent trade rules. Just look at the US/Canada Softwood lumber dispute, recently the US offered Canada a deal to end the dispute. The current sanctions against Canada Softwood Lumber would end if Canada would only allow Log Exports. We basically told them to take off.

TM37: I believe that article is wrong in 1 aspect, Canada does have a sugar industry, it's not very large, but it exists.
 

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
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Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Dudd
Ah yes, it's nice to see how easily our politicians can be bribed. Anyways, how are we able to get around NAFTA to keep out Mexican suger imports?

The US finds, or should I say "just does", a way to circumvent trade rules. Just look at the US/Canada Softwood lumber dispute, recently the US offered Canada a deal to end the dispute. The current sanctions against Canada Softwood Lumber would end if Canada would only allow Log Exports. We basically told them to take off.

TM37: I believe that article is wrong in 1 aspect, Canada does have a sugar industry, it's not very large, but it exists.

They may have a sugar growing industry but they more than likely have to import to meet there sugar demands.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,598
375
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You can buy a damned 20lb bag of sugar for like five bucks. How much cheaper could sugar be? Food companies, bakeries, confectioners, and restaurants buy sugar in even larger quantities at better prices.

Without protecting the US sugar industry, there is no way US sugar producers could compete with Pedro and the gang who can live like Royalty on $3000 per year in their stinking third world countries. In fact, US sugar producers cannot plant the same amount of sugar cane as cheaply as Pedro and the gang can plant, harvest, process, and transport to the US.

There's these pesky little things like 'standard of living' and 'minimum wage' and 'unemployment insurance' and 'liability insurance' and 'workman's compensation insurance' and 'environmental regulations' that US producers have to contend with which Pedro has never heard of.

So you kill the US sugar industry, and while we're at it, since we want to be fair and all, kill the other sectors of US agriculture which cannot compete with developing nations, Hepatitis A laden strawberries from Mexico included, and the steel industry, and the automotive industry, and soon we're left with only those sectors of the economy which the US can do as cheaply or more cheaply than developing nations.

Hmm, that should leave a work force of about 200 million people competing for roughly 2 million software developer positions, since that is one of the remaing few industries the US can do as well and as cheaply as developing countries.

Smart!
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
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The US finds, or should I say "just does", a way to circumvent trade rules. Just look at the US/Canada Softwood lumber dispute, recently the US offered Canada a deal to end the dispute. The current sanctions against Canada Softwood Lumber would end if Canada would only allow Log Exports. We basically told them to take off.

That's because with the amount the Canadian gov't subsidizes the lumber industry, which is what drove the tariff to begin with, they can still make a profit. Canadians are talking out of their ass about fair trade when it comes to lumber.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: tm37
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Dudd
Ah yes, it's nice to see how easily our politicians can be bribed. Anyways, how are we able to get around NAFTA to keep out Mexican suger imports?

The US finds, or should I say "just does", a way to circumvent trade rules. Just look at the US/Canada Softwood lumber dispute, recently the US offered Canada a deal to end the dispute. The current sanctions against Canada Softwood Lumber would end if Canada would only allow Log Exports. We basically told them to take off.

TM37: I believe that article is wrong in 1 aspect, Canada does have a sugar industry, it's not very large, but it exists.

They may have a sugar growing industry but they more than likely have to import to meet there sugar demands.

Definitely need to import some, so ya, that's probably what the author was getting at.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: DaveSohmer
The US finds, or should I say "just does", a way to circumvent trade rules. Just look at the US/Canada Softwood lumber dispute, recently the US offered Canada a deal to end the dispute. The current sanctions against Canada Softwood Lumber would end if Canada would only allow Log Exports. We basically told them to take off.

That's because with the amount the Canadian gov't subsidizes the lumber industry, which is what drove the tariff to begin with, they can still make a profit. Canadians are talking out of their ass about fair trade when it comes to lumber.

Subsidies? 3 times the US accused Canada of this, 3 times Canada was found to *not* be guilty! There are *no* subsidies.
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
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Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer
The US finds, or should I say "just does", a way to circumvent trade rules. Just look at the US/Canada Softwood lumber dispute, recently the US offered Canada a deal to end the dispute. The current sanctions against Canada Softwood Lumber would end if Canada would only allow Log Exports. We basically told them to take off.

That's because with the amount the Canadian gov't subsidizes the lumber industry, which is what drove the tariff to begin with, they can still make a profit. Canadians are talking out of their ass about fair trade when it comes to lumber.

Subsidies? 3 times the US accused Canada of this, 3 times Canada was found to *not* be guilty! There are *no* subsidies.

Your ignorance is showing again. When your goverment owns the land and charges 1/4 to 1/2 of what is considered fair market value to cut timber off of that land it is a subsidy. This is a fact that your goverment doesn't want to talk about and it is conveniently overlooked by those who are screeching "unfair trade" at the top of their lungs but it is still a fact.

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,287
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Originally posted by: DaveSohmer
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: DaveSohmer
The US finds, or should I say "just does", a way to circumvent trade rules. Just look at the US/Canada Softwood lumber dispute, recently the US offered Canada a deal to end the dispute. The current sanctions against Canada Softwood Lumber would end if Canada would only allow Log Exports. We basically told them to take off.

That's because with the amount the Canadian gov't subsidizes the lumber industry, which is what drove the tariff to begin with, they can still make a profit. Canadians are talking out of their ass about fair trade when it comes to lumber.

Subsidies? 3 times the US accused Canada of this, 3 times Canada was found to *not* be guilty! There are *no* subsidies.

Your ignorance is showing again. When your goverment owns the land and charges 1/4 to 1/2 of what is considered fair market value to cut timber off of that land it is a subsidy. This is a fact that your goverment doesn't want to talk about and it is conveniently overlooked by those who are screeching "unfair trade" at the top of their lungs but it is still a fact.

It's been talked about, trade panels/tribunals/FTA panels have examined it, Canada has even changed it's system numerous times to accomdate US concerns, yet the US continues the same whine despite losing every arguement to 3rd party rulings. My "ignorance" is based upon legal findings, not government/lobbiest propoganda.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,651
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This is capitalism right, let the market forces dictate? What a myth.

It goes way beyond sugar. We pay our farmers billions to not even grow so prices can be kept high. Its a joke to say we want less world trade barriers but have our own subsidies and protections that disable 3rd world countries from reducing their debt by selling more agriculture products to US. All so we can keep the money in our economy.

All included in the many mysterious wonders of why foreigners hate the US.
 

UltraQuiet

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Sep 22, 2001
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It's been talked about, trade panels/tribunals/FTA panels have examined it, Canada has even changed it's system numerous times to accomdate US concerns, yet the US continues the same whine despite losing every arguement to 3rd party rulings. My "ignorance" is based upon legal findings, not government/lobbiest propoganda

Well admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery however your ignorance continues. The WTO last July clearly stated that your country was subsidizing the lumber industry. Your countries BS argument is that only "goods" could be subsidized and that letting private lumber mills cut public timber for next to nothing was not a subsidy. Thankfully my goverment recognized this for what it really is and attempted to level the playing field.


Provincial governments grant an annual allowable cut to sawmill owners at whatever low price is necessary to maintain full employment in the timber industry ... {this} is beginning to wreak havoc with the timber industry in the United States?." (Jimmy Carter letter to The New York Times 3/24/01)

In short, the Canadian forest industry is run in the same way as the controlled economies of the former eastern bloc. Bureaucrats and politicians allocate the resource and determine its value. (Hamish Kerr,? The B.C. Industry: Major Change is Coming? 6/18/98)
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,598
375
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This is capitalism right, let the market forces dictate? What a myth.
Mixed economy, mixed capitalism, 'guided' by principles of free markets, the US economy has never been purely capitalist, nor purely free market, and I don't know anyone, except it would seem for you, who at any time believed otherwise.
It goes way beyond sugar. We pay our farmers billions to not even grow so prices can be kept high.
We subsidize farmers primarily to keep food prices "stable", not necessarily "high". Trying to keep prices "stable" will invariably mean that at times, we are propping up the price, while at other times, we are keeping it low.

We do so to prevent the dramatic boom and bust cycles of the past, which you may be too young to remember, or too ignorant to know, where farming was a booming business one decade, while bankuptcies and foreclosures were the rule for the next decade.
Its a joke to say we want less world trade barriers but have our own subsidies and protections that disable 3rd world countries from reducing their debt by selling more agriculture products to US. All so we can keep the money in our economy.
Its called having a "national interest", and every single country on the planet has one. If you believe otherwise, you're a fool. It is not our "world obligation" to enable or ensure that third-world countries reduce their debt, at the expense of our industry, which keeps our citizens employed and working, so they don't have to line up outside of the food banks for food.
 

AlienCraft

Lifer
Nov 23, 2002
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It's the reason that "High Fructose Corn Syrup" is used instead of sugar.
I want real sugar. Fructose is not the same molecule. We do not know what the long term effects are of HFCS.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,651
100
91
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Mixed economy, mixed capitalism, 'guided' by principles of free markets, the US economy has never been purely capitalist, nor purely free market, and I don't know anyone, except it would seem for you, who at any time believed otherwise
Wtf, "guided"? It isn't guided, its no better than propaganda to say that poorer nations are better off with free trade, as our govt loves to say, while maintaining the massive protections on the only thing thats going to be "better" for these countries.
We subsidize farmers primarily to keep food prices "stable", not necessarily "high". Trying to keep prices "stable" will invariably mean that at times, we are propping up the price, while at other times, we are keeping it low. We do so to keep prices stable to prevent the dramatic boom and bust cycles of the past, which you may be too young to remember, or too ignorant to know, where farming was a booming business one decade, while bankuptcies and foreclosures were the rule for the next decade
Subsidies may have started that way but the increases of farm and agricultural subsidies are to keep "Pedro" from having any kind of standard of living because it might take from our plate and weaken some of our farming industries. Stability, sure, as in prices don't fall because other countries can export the goods much cheaper at much cheaper prices, thus increasing 'instability'. This is a hypocracy.
It is not our "world obligation" to enable or ensure that third-world countries reduce their debt, at the expense of our industry, which keeps our citizens employed and working, so they don't have to line up outside of the food banks for food.
This is an outrageous conjecture, that this issue is about an "obligation" to see these other countries out of debt and increase their standard of living. We have the best standard of living in the world and much of it is because we take our manufacturing processes outside our borders to exploit the differential in labor costs. Yet when other countries can take advantage of their lower labor and/or production costs and export their farm/agriculture products for cheaper, we invoke massive protections. Other countries don't ask for handouts in this regard, but equality.

You can't have it both ways. If you want free trade, make it free trade. If you don't, then imo, get the F out of their countries and quit exploiting their cheap and unregulated labor practices as well as lack of equivalent environmental regulations. This unilateral policy has fueled our economy and wealth while at the expense of oppressing others.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,287
5,857
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Originally posted by: DaveSohmer
It's been talked about, trade panels/tribunals/FTA panels have examined it, Canada has even changed it's system numerous times to accomdate US concerns, yet the US continues the same whine despite losing every arguement to 3rd party rulings. My "ignorance" is based upon legal findings, not government/lobbiest propoganda

Well admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery however your ignorance continues. The WTO last July clearly stated that your country was subsidizing the lumber industry. Your countries BS argument is that only "goods" could be subsidized and that letting private lumber mills cut public timber for next to nothing was not a subsidy. Thankfully my goverment recognized this for what it really is and attempted to level the playing field.


Provincial governments grant an annual allowable cut to sawmill owners at whatever low price is necessary to maintain full employment in the timber industry ... {this} is beginning to wreak havoc with the timber industry in the United States?." (Jimmy Carter letter to The New York Times 3/24/01)

In short, the Canadian forest industry is run in the same way as the controlled economies of the former eastern bloc. Bureaucrats and politicians allocate the resource and determine its value. (Hamish Kerr,? The B.C. Industry: Major Change is Coming? 6/18/98)

Yet, unleveling the playing field is fine? Doesn't the seller have some say in the price of a product? Just because the US government doesn't own any(or little) land, is Canada obligated to do the same?
 

Draknor

Senior member
Dec 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: jjsole
You can't have it both ways. If you want free trade, make it free trade. If you don't, then imo, get the F out of their countries and quit exploiting their cheap and unregulated labor practices as well as lack of equivalent environmental regulations. This unilateral policy has fueled our economy and wealth while at the expense of oppressing others.

Amen!
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,442
211
106
Yeah he misses the point Canada is a HUGE country mostly covered by trees with not a lot of people.
Its not only stumpage that is cheaper but are mill are larger, transportation more effecient, and people in the industry who want to make a living from it not record profit.
That is why the US industry comes up short, it CAN'T compete.
The WTO HAS 3 times ruled against the US on softwood including the last time if it wasn't for a couple of vocal senators from Montana there would be no tarrifs.
Personally I think we should put export tariffs on all Energy gas and oil going to the states for every dollar softwood costs.
Sorry boys no more cheap energy, or the US could drop its BS tarrifs and go back to letting the market determine the price.
The only consolation is for every logging job they save they loose about 5 trades jobs in proportion to the rising cost of lumber.
 

UltraQuiet

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Sep 22, 2001
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Yet, unleveling the playing field is fine? Doesn't the seller have some say in the price of a product? Just because the US government doesn't own any(or little) land, is Canada obligated to do the same?


Canada is obligated to do whatever is best for Canada. If the Canadian goverment is playing an intergal part in private industry then it is incumbent upon the US goverment to do the same in order to at least attempt to level the playing field. I am not missing a point or anything else.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
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Plus, taxpayers will pay two billion dollars over the next ten years to buy and store excess sugar.

Yikes! My math may be a little fuzzy, but doesn't that come out to $200,000,000 per year? For sugar?