Intel's Next Gen - Conroe - what do you make of the speculation?

Diasper

Senior member
Mar 7, 2005
709
0
0
Like others I've been quietly following the speculation on what Intel's new Conroe design may actually be.

Anandtech's article was interesting.

However, I found a far more radical interpretation on theinquirer.net - crazy idea, if Intel did pull that off. And if squeezed between Yonah and then something like that which they could make massively multi-core, I would have no idea how AMD could respond...

It's a week before IDF, so we still have a little time to speculate more ;)


edit fixed link
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,889
10,210
136
I would LOVE theinquirer.net to be correct in this instance. To get raw speed through a simple method, and then translate all the complex stuff in one of our cores in a multicore CPU.

It is also stated that Intel has 45nm process ready, and so if that makes its way into this next gen, I might hold out with my two year old 3GHz until that arrives.
 

Schmeh

Member
Jun 25, 2004
29
0
0
I think the Inquirer article is complete BS. The author is the same author who wrote the "Cell Architecture Explained" article that said stuff like this:

Cell will accelerate many commonly used applications by ludicrous proportions compared to PCs. Intel could put 10 cores on a chip and they'll match neither it's performance or price.

Even with a single Cell it will outgun top end multiprocessor PCs many times over. That's gotta hurt, and it will hurt, Cell is going to effectively make traditional general purpose microprocessors obsolete.

The first Cell based desktop computer will be the fastest desktop computer in the industry by a very large margin. Even high end multi-core x86s will not get close. Companies who produce microprocessors or DSPs are going to have a very hard time fighting the power a Cell will deliver. We have never seen a leap in performance like this before and I don't expect we'll ever see one again, It'll send shock-waves through the entire industry and we'll see big changes as a result.

Cell is going to turn the industry upside down, nobody has ever produced such a leap in performance in one go and certainly not at a low price. The CPU producers will be forced to fight back and irrespective of how well the Cell actually does in the market you can be sure that in a few short years all CPUs will be providing vastly more processing resources than they do today. Even if the Cell was to fail we shall all gain from it's legacy.

Now I am as excited and curious as the next guy when it comes to the Cell and its potential, but the stuff this guy says is completely ridiculous.

Link to Nicholas Blachford article:
http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cell/archive/Cell0.html
 

phaxmohdem

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2004
1,839
0
0
www.avxmedia.com
Not a horrible theory, and unfortunately I have nothing really to add to that, other than it sounds like if Intel went that route, they could almost certainly incorporate a special purpose core with a large cache perhaps to do all the translation work and pipe it to the other main CPU cores on the chip reducing most of the overhead involved in translation that crippled the Transmeta CPU's. However they'd need some helluva fast interconnects to be able to pipe the ammounts of data required to all necesary parts of the CPU. Espcially in a 16 core unit.

One thing is for sure in my mind Conroe will kick some ass. It has to after the problems the Pentium 4 family has been through. And I would guess a majority of the PC's sold on this platform will still be used mainly for Solitaire and Minesweeper, with maybe a little email action :p. Perhaps the Longhorn *cough* excuse me "Vista" version of Minesweeper will require a Conroe Class CPU to handle an improved minesweeping interface. Only time will tell. I am actually excited for a change though about IDF and the ensuing technical articles to be released.
 

Diasper

Senior member
Mar 7, 2005
709
0
0
Fixed link to anandtech's article.

More thoughts?

Anandtech's seems more probably explanation - coming out with something truely radical like what the inquirer suggests I can't imagine they'd do this generation - that's too quick.
 
Mar 17, 2005
163
0
0
I'm pretty sure intel will be releasing multi-core CPUs at IDF. and I'm pretty sure that Conroe will be 65nm tech. I don't think Intel has 45nm ready as stated above; though I'm sure it won't be long.
 

Intelia

Banned
May 12, 2005
832
0
0
Originally posted by: Diasper
Fixed link to anandtech's article.

More thoughts?

Anandtech's seems more probably explanation - coming out with something truely radical like what the inquirer suggests I can't imagine they'd do this generation - that's too quick.

We got two differant things from our reading . Anand really touches on all the possibilities well thought out and makes since . But he touches on the compilier issue. The Inquery article was actually fucosed on the Compiler issue. And it is a fact that Intel did infact buy that Russian company. So I am really leaning towards the Inquire article as being pretty close to what well see . My opion only.

 

Sentential

Senior member
Feb 28, 2005
677
0
0
Personally Im very dissapointed because from what I have seen thus far neither it or Presler will have Hyperthreading. So to me there is no real point in buying it since I wont gain much of anything over a single core with HT.
 

BitByBit

Senior member
Jan 2, 2005
474
2
81
Presler is just another Netburst chip, and is intended to replace Smithfield.
http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2362

Considering that Intel intends to bring Yonah - a Pentium M derivative - to the desktop by next year, I think it is likely that Conroe will be the next step up from that. If Intel didn't intend to give the Dothan architecture (and derivatives) a future on the desktop, then Yonah would probably have been confined to the mobile platform.
I'd imagine that Conroe, as the rumours suggest, will be a wide-issue design owing alot to Dothan. Intel have mentioned special purpose hardware, but I doubt we will see this for some time.
Also, if we consider that Intel originally intended Tejas for 2005/2006 and only relatively recently decided to focus on something different, it seems unlikely that such a drastic change in momentum could allow such radical changes to the Pentium platform as The Inquirer's article suggests.

I think we will see a return to a much more iterative design process from Intel. Netburst was a radical departure in design, and I imagine proved to be the cause of many headaches at Intel in recent times.
The Pentium M on the other hand seems to be a very safe, sensible design, and will likely be the basis of designs for some time to come.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
WTF? HOW THE FK DID I NOT SEE THIS ARTICLE?????

BTW, I think people may have high hopes for 512KB cache Celerons. They seem to be looking good, but too bad no HT. :(.
 

Furen

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2004
1,567
0
0
Conroe doesnt look like it will be too wide or too deep so it doesnt look like HT would help it much. It'd be like adding HT to an A64 or a Pentium M.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Why is HT only good for processors with Deep pipelines? Northwoods had it and they only had 20 pipe stages.
 

Furen

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2004
1,567
0
0
Haha, 20 stages was insanely deep when the P4 came out. The A64 is only 13 stages deep, I believe. The reason why you need either a deep or a wide cpu is because you are sharing resources and if they're not free from the "main" thread, there's nothing for the secondary thread to use. Deep pipelines can share resources whenever one of the threads stalls or there is a pipeline flush while wide cpus will (most likely) have free execution units most of the time. So even if you did do some sharing on a short (shallow doesnt sound too good, heh) and narrow cpu you'd just be taking resources from the main thread to feed the secondary.

EDIT: Now, I'm not saying that HT wouldnt benefit a conroe (or an A64) at all, the benefit would probably be low enough to not be worth the extra resources that have to be added to the cpu and the extra R&D, validation, etc.
 

Intelia

Banned
May 12, 2005
832
0
0
Originally posted by: Sentential
Personally Im very dissapointed because from what I have seen thus far neither it or Presler will have Hyperthreading. So to me there is no real point in buying it since I wont gain much of anything over a single core with HT.

It will have H/T and 4+4 of shared cache in the ee model $$$$$

 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
Originally posted by: Furen
Haha, 20 stages was insanely deep when the P4 came out. The A64 is only 13 stages deep, I believe. The reason why you need either a deep or a wide cpu is because you are sharing resources and if they're not free from the "main" thread, there's nothing for the secondary thread to use. Deep pipelines can share resources whenever one of the threads stalls or there is a pipeline flush while wide cpus will (most likely) have free execution units most of the time. So even if you did do some sharing on a short (shallow doesnt sound too good, heh) and narrow cpu you'd just be taking resources from the main thread to feed the secondary.

EDIT: Now, I'm not saying that HT wouldnt benefit a conroe (or an A64) at all, the benefit would probably be low enough to not be worth the extra resources that have to be added to the cpu and the extra R&D, validation, etc.

A64s are probably wide enough to take advantage of it, but hyperthreading has questionable benefits as is on the P4, and the benefits would almost certainly be less for A64.(it's wider but not as wide as the P4 is long, plus it's memory controller probably helps it keep execution units fairly filled anyhow)
 

Soccerman06

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2004
5,830
5
81
Oh this is funny, Anand has said before (from a news link or article, I dont remember) that Conroe will be 65nm and will not have HT. They also say that Conroe will come in single and multi core flavors, whether that means 2 cores or more, we dont know.
 

Sentential

Senior member
Feb 28, 2005
677
0
0
Originally posted by: Intelia
Originally posted by: Sentential
Personally Im very dissapointed because from what I have seen thus far neither it or Presler will have Hyperthreading. So to me there is no real point in buying it since I wont gain much of anything over a single core with HT.

It will have H/T and 4+4 of shared cache in the ee model $$$$$

Still tho, an EE @ 1k isnt going to be selling much nor will I be buying one. So its a moot point.
 

Vee

Senior member
Jun 18, 2004
689
0
0
I believe the inquirer article is hogwash.

I don't know what planet the author comes from. But VLIW, locally recompiled code, individually compiled code for every cpu and generally great dependency on compilers, are all very old ideas. Old ideas that have been around for decades and have been invested very heavily into both in terms of billions of $ and in man years of work. And they are sofar failures.
It would be fantastic for AMD if Intel were to squander their vast advantage in engineering resources and funds on such adventures.

It's perhaps a good moment to remember that Intel really have never, not ever in their entire history, done anything good by themselves. 8086, 80286 and Itanium, for instance, deserves being recognized amongst the worst CPU architectures of all time.
8086 and '286 were commercially successful only because of the credibility that the IBM badge earned for the 'PC' amongst business people.
And the limited success that Itanium enjoys is only due to various business ties/dealings, - Intel-HP-DEC which have killed off HP-PA and Alpha.
And Netburst is arguably only successful because of Intel's heavy handed and 'criminal' flexing of their monopolistic muscles.

The clever '386 32-bit ISA, that saved the 'PC', and which we have been using since the advent of Win95 and Linux, was basically a design requirement from Microsoft.
The P6 core ( Pentium Pro through to PIIIe, and arguably, PentiumM ) that Intel's fortunes have relied so heavily upon in recent years was "borrowed" together from DEC and Nexgen.
And the AMD86-64 ISA that the future depends upon was, of course, designed by AMD.
During all this, Intel's contributions have been limited to leaning on benchmark providers to rig their tests to favor Netburst. "AMD is best for gaming" - no, frankly, AMD is best for pretty much everything, but the gaming benchmarks are the ones that correlate to reality.

So both because of this and because of Intel's recent technical experiences with the failures of Netburst and EPIC, I don't think Intel will climb far out on a limb with Conroe.
And it would be foolish to expect continued design ineptitude from Intel indefinitely. Companies change, and Intel have over the time acquired a lot of experience, knowledge and tools.
...But then, more in the Intel tradition - if it can't be invented by Intel -, there is the purchase of Elbrus... (though I somehow think this is more related towards getting the 'epic' Itanic to take off)
So there are very good reasons to be curious and even excited about the Conroe.

My belief about what the Conroe will be haven't changed much since I joined this forum. But I have absolutely no knowledge.

My view of the Conroe is that it will be a CPU with CISC decoders. AMD86-64 decoders more precisely.
I also think the basic groundwork core layout is going to be something roughly along the lines of the K8, but wider and smarter.
I think it will have four decoder pipelines. I also think it will have four execution pipelines.
I think the core will be designed to be used in multicore CPUs. Multicore, not just dual core.
I don't think Conroe will feature hyper threading. It's basically worthless and a lot of trouble.
I'm guessing that the advanced novelties are going to be found partly in caches, branch prediction, speculative execution, stuff that supports the OoO sheduling, - and partly in the getting the work in and out of the CPU, the memory interface.

But it's just a guess, and not an imaginative one. The crux, as I see it, is to get as much load as possible on the four execution pipelines. This seems hard, and would thus be where Intel may have a technical breakthrough.


**************


Maybe we should step back a moment and consider general movements and requirements of computing.
The Conroe's design will surely reflect what Intel are thinking about that and the future.

The problem areas I see are:

1: Containing power requirements with a very large, and increasing, amount of transistors on the chip. The ever increased number of transistors is required by the demand for higher performance at conditional computing. The inquirer article author obviously think the solution here is to reduce the number of transistors, and thus he has an entirely different angle on this.
I believe the solution is to hold back clock rates and increase IPC. (Power requirements, I think, increase about seven times faster than clockrate.)
...- besides process improvements, of course.
Again this belief is not particularly imaginative, and only follows the direction that the success of PentiumM and Athlon64 (and Elbrus) points to. There are reasons to be curious about the Conroe.

2: Getting the work into and out of the CPU. This is where AMD's integrated memory controller and hyper transport have triumphed a bit lately. But I suspect there is a lot more to be done here.
Again, the inquirer article author has a different angle because he seems to think that the problem is execution speed inside the CPU. I don't know why he thinks that. Maybe it has to do with his idea of limiting the amount of transistors. Or maybe he's drunk too deep from RISC religion and anti-CISC propaganda.

3: For some reason (I can't understand), the consumer market is moving towards laptops. This is surely also one of Apple's reasons for interest. Low power requirements. See 1: above.

4: Blade servers and heat. See 1: above.


***************

AMD - Intel relationship.

I believe we are going to see some reversal of properties, in the immediate future. Conroe vs.K10. AMD may have higher clock rates.
Also, my guess is that AMD will go for more cores per chip and less performance per core than Intel. That is really sticking my neck out, though.

AMD does not have the market support enough to be able to compete with Intel engineering, once Intel gets something right. This is extremely serious. I doubt very much many of you understand how really serious this is for computing in general, and for Wests longterm leadership in computing technology.

Finally, to reflect on something in the inquirer article, and give it some due:
Intel would like to use their market dominance to somehow exclude and kill off AMD.
For that reason, introducing a new, different, proprietary ISA must be very tempting.
In fact it seems Intel have already tried that and been held off by Microsoft. But they might try it again. And maybe, maybe, maybe Microsoft actually folded, and we're just waiting on Longhorn? Maybe that's the real reason for MS recent lack of interest in the Itanium.
They must be backwards compatible with x86 and yet not fall under the X86 cross licensing agreement. It implies some software stage or morph.
Combined with this, might also be an attempt to reintroduce EPIC on the desktop. Though I think in this case it is more likely to be something completely new, but related.
But anything like this could be an opportunity for AMD.
 

Diasper

Senior member
Mar 7, 2005
709
0
0
Great post. Thank you for contributing.

I was thinking along similar lines of the Conroe design with a lower mhz but far higher IPC speed achieved partly but widening the pipes but more by a massively increased focus on branch prediction to ensure those pipes are filled as much as possible. I also expect it to be matched with super fast cache although perhaps with not much more than we are seeing today as with improved branch prediction they may be able to get away with less and thus reduce manufacturing costs. I'm less sure about the number of decoder and execution pipelines but four would be feasible.

I think Intel will not only be looking at designing these chips for multi-core which can easily be scaled with a hopeful attempt at being able to do this at much lower manufacturing costs than currently with Netburst - and in this way crush AMD. After all, AMD and Intel are more manufacturing companies than design ones so the way to crush AMD is simply to come out with a slightly better performing part and then being able to undercut them. Because of that the last days of the XP line before AMD64 emerged were tough times indeed for AMD.

The fact that this is a new design and different from Yonah which looks to be a very promising chip, we can say that Conroe to Intel must have advantages - we can probably assume these to include better all round performance (perhaps the FPU of Yonah still might not be quite as powerful as Turion although not far off) and particularly in encoding (although that is a guess). But perhaps the main thing Intel sees in the Conroe design is how it can easily be scaled to massively multi-core at comparatively low cost and thus put immense pressure on AMD.

Ideas.

Btw could you elaborate what you mean in your reference to how serious it would be for computing in general and for the Wests longterm leadership in computer tech, if Intel gets something right?

:)

 

Intelia

Banned
May 12, 2005
832
0
0
Originally posted by: Sentential
Originally posted by: Intelia
Originally posted by: Sentential
Personally Im very dissapointed because from what I have seen thus far neither it or Presler will have Hyperthreading. So to me there is no real point in buying it since I wont gain much of anything over a single core with HT.

It will have H/T and 4+4 of shared cache in the ee model $$$$$

Still tho, an EE @ 1k isnt going to be selling much nor will I be buying one. So its a moot point.

If the EE has 4+4 of shared cache it would be worth the primiem price 8mb of gaming cache Oh YA

Intel has a lot of experience of VLIW processors from its Itanium project which has now been going on for more than a decade. Intel also now has HP?s expertise on board as HP?s entire Itanium design team was recently transferred to Intel.

Another technology Intel has access to is DEC?s FX!32. This was written in the mid 1990s and allowed X86 software to run on Alpha RISC microprocessors. A lot of the Alpha people and technology was transferred to Intel and FX!32 most likely went with it, indeed it has already been developing similar technology to run X86 binaries on Itanium for quite some time now.

It gets better. Both the Itanium and the Transmeta designs were said to be inspired by VLIW designs built in Russia by a company called Elbrus. Intel did a deal with Elbrus in mid 2004 then went on to buy the company in August 2004. The exact nature of the deal is unclear, however, as another company continued and taped out the E2K processor earlier this year.

Most interestingly though is the E2K compiler technology which allows it to run X86 software. This is exactly the sort of technology Intel need and since last year they have had access to it and employ many of it?s designers.

So, Intel has access to VLIW technology from the Itanium and HP as well as the translation software from DEC. Most importantly it has the highly advanced technology from Elbrus which has been in development since the 1980s.

One really needs to look at the picture as a whole not just bits and piecies.

If intel gets the Itanic to run X86 without a speed penalty . It will be a great great CPU.



 

Hard Ball

Senior member
Jul 3, 2005
594
0
0
Originally posted by: Intelia
Originally posted by: Diasper
Fixed link to anandtech's article.

More thoughts?

Anandtech's seems more probably explanation - coming out with something truely radical like what the inquirer suggests I can't imagine they'd do this generation - that's too quick.

We got two differant things from our reading . Anand really touches on all the possibilities well thought out and makes since . But he touches on the compilier issue. The Inquery article was actually fucosed on the Compiler issue. And it is a fact that Intel did infact buy that Russian company. So I am really leaning towards the Inquire article as being pretty close to what well see . My opion only.

Well Intelia, I think you really mean:
Originally posted by: Intelia
My opium only.

Since when has the inquirer been a reliable source of information; not only that, the author fully upfront admits that all of his predictions are merely speculation, mostly fueled by this line of reasoning:
The change is so big in fact, it?s the reason for Apple?s processor switch. Indeed the phrase given when Steve Jobs announced the switch, "performance per watt" is the very same phrase being used by Intel spokesmen.

Even more dubious, some of the othe justifications for his theory, were things like transfer of some of the Alpha RISC personel to Intel years ago. Please keep things in perspective before going off the deep end.



 

Intelia

Banned
May 12, 2005
832
0
0
I find it interesting that at IDF this week intel is suppose indicate the Intel Apple is 1 year away. Now if thats true Apple is looking at more than Conroe . Maybe Steve is going to look at 1 of the worst Arch. ever from intel the low life Itanic. What the hell does Steve jobs know about computers lol