Intel Skylake / Kaby Lake

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Aristotelian

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,246
11
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Can someone tell me why the higher-end surfaces and 2in1s and larger tablets in general are over $2k?

Why in general are they more expensive then equivalent specced laptops? Because of the materials they use? I know form factor has a lot to do with it but for $2k the performance you get compared to $2k spent on a normal laptop or small desktop is absurd. Just for a low powered i7?

I'm sure there is a need for it, but still I can get over the price/performance.

I'm used to seeing portables in this price range (long time vaio z user here considering the switch) but not used to seeing Microsoft in this space. I'd like to try out a maxed surface pro 4 - one question I have is about the power brick - anyone have information on that? One thing to have a portable device another to luck around a clunky charging cable (razer designed a slimmer one for their blade series of laptops which helps)
 

knutinh

Member
Jan 13, 2006
61
3
66
I have two computers:
1. An office computer used (among other things) for Adobe Lightroom. It is an Intel i7 2600 w/12GB of DDR3 and 120GB SSD.
2. A living room computer/HTPC with a core2 duo and 2GB of ram, spinning drive.

Both running Windows 7 64.

I have thought about updating both computers. Getting some more performance out of 1) would be nice. Getting more performance out of 2) is important as it is painfully slow.

I waited for Broadwell, then waited for Skylake. I am still not totally convinced. I figure that:
1. Would benefit the most from a larger SSD and (actually) faster processor. Not sure how much faster e.g. 100 raw files would be developed using something like an i7 6700 (K)? Having to replace 12+ GB of ram using either a)DDR3L that is "outdated" or DDR4 that is expensive sounds like a pain. I will likely add a 4kp60 monitor to this system so being able to output that without swapping components (or using poorly supported "dual" connections) would be a plus.
2. Would benefit from a "balanced" cpu+igpu with moderate power consumption, 4-8GB of memory and inheriting the 120GB SSD from my office computer. I figure that having the eDram/l4 of the i7-5775C Broadwell together with the updated core/gpu and reduced power of the ix-6x00 (T) would have been ideal, but sadly not something that Intel choose to sell.

-k
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,226
9,990
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I have two computers:
2. A living room computer/HTPC with a core2 duo and 2GB of ram, spinning drive.
Both running Windows 7 64.
Getting more performance out of 2) is important as it is painfully slow.

Coincidence? I think not. Get #2 a cheap 120GB entry-level SSD. (Or an 850 EVO.) Should speed it up nicely, even with only 2GB of RAM (though 4GB would be much better).
 

khon

Golden Member
Jun 8, 2010
1,319
124
106
Dell refreshes XPS 13 and XPS 15, and debuts XPS 12 tablet hybrid
www.pcworld.com/article/2990320/laptop-computers/dells-xps-laptops-get-bigger-with-the-999-xps-15-and-better-with-all-skylake-cpus.html

Love the thin bezels. This new wave of Windows 10 devices is really impressive.

The XPS 12 could be interesting. $999 for the starting model including m5 processor, 8GB RAM and keyboard vs $1038 for SP4 with m3 processor, 4GB RAM and keyboard.

Wonder what the 4K version with 256GB storage will cost, maybe ~$1300 ?
 

slag

Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
10,473
81
101
Microcenter has the skylake cpus on sale. i5-6600K for $219.99 and the i7-6700K for $319.99.
 

witeken

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2013
3,899
193
106
Idontcare / semiconductor question

Can someone help me, I just realized something I hadn't realized before...

The thing that is normally associated with performance, is Lgate or the length of the gate.

Well, what I realized is that I always thought it was the length of the channel, but the channel is of course not called gate.

So here's my question: am I indeed wrong? Are Lgate and Lchannel different? Then what is Lgate actually?
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,012
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Idontcare / semiconductor question

Can someone help me, I just realized something I hadn't realized before...

The thing that is normally associated with performance, is Lgate or the length of the gate.

Well, what I realized is that I always thought it was the length of the channel, but the channel is of course not called gate.

So here's my question: am I indeed wrong? Are Lgate and Lchannel different? Then what is Lgate actually?

http://electronics.stackexchange.co...nimum-feature-size-transistor-gate-length-and
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
I'd like to know more about Skylake's Speed Shift Technology. What we know:

-It needs OS cooperation to work, specifically Windows 10
-Twitter announcement recently said its now enabled, which I guess depends on whether you have the latest updates or not
-Substantial gain on short burst workloads, and saves power
-Research paper mentioned this and Skylake implements it: http://www.chipex.co.il/_Uploads/dbsAttachedFiles/Heterogeneouscomputerplatformenergymanagment.pdf
Anyone remember the weird TH benches when SKL was on Windows 10?

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/skylake-intel-core-i7-6700k-core-i5-6600k,4252-5.html

Speculation abounded as to what the cause might be, anywhere from being that its an erroneous testing, to more outrageous like Reverse Hyperthreading.

It's possible that the short tests like that are benefitting from Speed Shift. From what I can tell initially the impact on mobile should be as significant as introduction of Turbo Mode.

Intel presentations also mention(rather specifically) that a new feature called "SoC Duty Cycling" benefits "thermally bound systems" a lot. It also requires OS support, but once it does, you not only gain performance gains, but reduce power at the same time. That's a really good thing for Core M.

Interestingly, PCWatch article mentions that for a 5 decoder, 6 uop output CPU, the gains are not so good. Perhaps the lack of gains has to do with this. Maybe we'll see quite nice gains on mobile systems with Speed Shift enabled.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
A bit on Speed Shift:

The technology is pretty cool. Everyone knows something called "HUGI" where it supposedly runs the CPU fast as possible to get to idle as fast as possible. In reality, its not that simple. Depending on the workload, it might be that the chip(or the SoC) is the major factor for power use, or it might be that rest of the system is dominant. So using "HUGI" in every scenario isn't so optimal.

Another factor is process. High leakage power means going below certain frequency has no benefit. Maybe you don't want to run the CPU at 3.5GHz to "HUGI", but you won't save power by running it at 300MHz. Every workload has what's the most efficient operating frequency. That's the point where it has best balance of system power + leakage power + performance.

The Skylake CPU is intelligent enough to monitor the entire system power and also monitors workload constantly to optimize the most efficient operating frequency, which differs from program to program.

Intel's presentation shows that the performance gain in WebXPRT is 20% while at the same time it saves power by 15%. This is going to show big gains on enabled systems with "tablet-like" workloads.
 

carop

Member
Jul 9, 2012
91
7
71
Idontcare / semiconductor question

Can someone help me, I just realized something I hadn't realized before...

The thing that is normally associated with performance, is Lgate or the length of the gate.

Well, what I realized is that I always thought it was the length of the channel, but the channel is of course not called gate.

So here's my question: am I indeed wrong? Are Lgate and Lchannel different? Then what is Lgate actually?

From Page 6 Sidebar:

Gate Length (Lg) versus Channel Length (L) and Experimental Data versus Equations

Gate length is the physical length of the gate and can be accurately measured with a scanning electron microscope (SEM). It is carefully controlled in the fabrication plant (called fab in short). The channel length, in comparison, can not be determined accurately due to the lateral diffusion of the source and drain junctions. L tracks Lg well but the difference between the two just can not be quantified precisely. As a result, Lg is widely used in lieu of L in data collection and presentations such as in Fig. 7-3. L is used in theoretical equations but it is understood that L can not be known precisely for small real transistors. Thus we rely on measured data and complex computer simulations of devices for precise device development and circuit design. On the other hand, we rely on the theoretical equations to guide the interpretation of the data, the design of new experiments, and the search for new innovative ideas.
http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~ee130/sp06/chp7full.pdf
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,142
131
Looks like Core i5 SP4 is using the faster 6300U instead of 6200U.

http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/3737541

Based on the Amazon listing the Core i7 version is based on the faster 6650U SKU (up to 3.4GHz). Top notch, can't wait to see how it performs.
 

Raftina

Member
Jun 25, 2015
39
0
0
I was under the impression that the 6300U and the 6700U, i.e. the vPro compatible tiers, are Q1 2016 products. Does that mean the SP4 is still quite a ways away?
 

t0mt0m

Member
Apr 21, 2015
35
2
36
I was under the impression that the 6300U and the 6700U, i.e. the vPro compatible tiers, are Q1 2016 products. Does that mean the SP4 is still quite a ways away?

Down to ship by Dec 10 on the windows store http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msuk/en_GB/pdp/productID.326546100
for the i7. Nov 12 for some of the lower models
 
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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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As I read Anandtech chart its the i5 6300U and i7 6600U for January shipping from Dell with the XPS 13.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,112
2,108
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Kabylake is a Intel® Processor containing Intel® HD Graphics following Skylake. It is Gen9p5, so it inherits everything from Skylake. So let's define Kabylake as Skylake and reuse the great job Damien and others did for Skylake. The caveat is that Kabylake A0 was derivated from Skylake D0, so we needed some adjusts on revid handling in order to avoid old and not anymore needed workarounds.
Kabylake is gen 9.5 derivated from Skylake H0 stepping. So we don't need pre-production Skylake workaround and also firmware loading will use SKL H0 offsets.
Also, following kernel definition Kabylake is Skylake.
http://www.spinics.net/lists/intel-gfx/msg77327.html
http://www.spinics.net/lists/intel-gfx/msg77323.html
http://www.spinics.net/lists/intel-gfx/msg77330.html


No Gen10. I wonder what 9.5 means. There are two big missing features in Skylake, lack of HDMI 2.0 and 10 bit HEVC decoding/encoding support. If Intel can't add this into Gen9.5, they/we have to wait till Gen10 for a long time. Especially for missing 10 bit HEVC decoding, this is a big deal for low power devices. Since several years Intel was focused on power improvements for their ULX/ULX lineup but failed to include such an important feature for HEVC playback. This is a big fail. Let's hope Gen9.5 is more than just a renamed Gen9.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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I dont think we ever seen native HDMI 2.0 without the Thunderbolt chip. AMD may drop it as well on the GPU front and instead focus on the DP to HDMI 2.0 adapters if people got a need.

We are starting to see DP enabled TVs. Hopefully it will expand.

Fully agree with the Main10 issue on ultra mobiles/tablets. While its not an issue to decode Main10 even on a lowend i3 U series. If you are not on AC power it gets troublesome fast. And Netflix 4K is Main10.
 
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mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,112
2,108
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There is native HDMI 2.0 on Maxwell, just one example. It's just a question of time when Intel adds it imho. Although missing HEVC 10 bit decode is a bigger issue. There are other solutions/workarounds for missing HDMI 2.0.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
145
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I know with Maxwell, I got one (GTX980).

I still doubt if Intel ever add it. But rather going the AMD way. It essentially all depends on the TV roadmaps in terms of input ports. And I admit I have no clue about those. if 2016 TVs largely supports a mDP input or similar. Then HDMI 2.0 is quickly kicked to the sideline. DP 1.3 supports HDCP 2.2.
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
2,655
138
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There is native HDMI 2.0 on Maxwell, just one example. It's just a question of time when Intel adds it imho. Although missing HEVC 10 bit decode is a bigger issue. There are other solutions/workarounds for missing HDMI 2.0.
But... that means that HDMI 2.0 is not fully supported, however Maxwell gives the best experience then.
Maybe Pascal and Artic will change that.
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
3,705
182
106
As I read Anandtech chart its the i5 6300U and i7 6600U for January shipping from Dell with the XPS 13.

Could be. The AT table formatting is not very clear unfortunately, so it's not obvious what SKUs "January" is related to. But I see that Dell has the XPS13 with 6200U available on their site, but not the 6300U. So most likely your interpretation is correct after all.
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
1,142
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Toshiba Radius 12 review: It stuns with Skylake speed and a spectacular display

21040956406_c8c655312b_o-100621386-orig.jpg


Toshiba’s Radius 12 2-in-1 packs an UltraHD 4K panel into a 12.5-inch diagonal screen, and if that’s not interesting enough for you, get this: It’s also one of the first mobile PCs out of the gate with a Skylake CPU.
Toshiba outfitted the Radius 12 with an Intel Core i7-6500U 'Skylake' CPU. For those who don’t speak model numbers, that’s Intel’s latest, 6th-generation Skylake CPU. There’s also 8GB of LPDDR3 RAM/1600, and a 256GB M.2 drive. For graphics, it’s Intel’s integrated HD 520.

toshiba_radius12_handbrake_99-100621409-orig.png


toshiba_radius12_3dmark_skydiver-100621406-orig.png


For a performance comparison, I took the 13-inch Lenovo LaVie Z with its Core i7-5500U and HD5500 and upgraded it to Windows 10 to run performance benchmarks. That means Core i7-5500U in the Lenovo against the Core i7-6500U in the Toshiba.
The result? Skylake, at least in this showdown, shows a significant performance advantage.

The performance difference there is what you call a “boom” in John Madden-speak. So why is it so much faster? Some of it is Skylake’s design, which is “wider” than Broadwell and Haswell. Some of it is the chip's higher Turbo Boost scores too.
For example, the encode we run is a worst-case scenario for laptops and takes about two hours to run. On the Lenovo the CPU starts out at 2.9GHz but after two minutes, it falls back to 2.6GHz, where it stays until the encode task is done. The Toshiba’s Skylake chip stars the encode at 3GHz and holds that clock speed until the entire job is done.
toshiba radius12 3dmark skydiver

Skylake’s graphics prowess again puts the Toshiba way out in front.
The Toshiba Radius 12 and its Skylake chip also lead the graphics benchmarking by a very healthy margin. The upshot is the Radius 12 is easily the fastest Ultrabook we’ve seen to date in both CPU and graphics operations.

www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/laptop/tos...ylake-speed-and-a-spectacular-display-3627232

Nice boost by Skylake. This chip will power the Core i7 Surface Book too. Hopefully the Core i7 6650U (Core i7 Surface Pro 4) can also sustain Turbo clocks better than its predecessors.


Apple upgrades all 27-inch iMacs to 5K Retina displays & Intel Skylake CPUs, starting at $1,799

The base model iMac comes with a 3.2-gigahertz Core i5 processor, 8 gigabytes of RAM, a 1-terabyte hard drive, and an AMD Radeon R9 M380 graphics card with 2 gigabytes of VRAM. For $1,999 buyers can upgrade to a 1 terabyte Fusion Drive, and a Radeon R9 M390 graphics card. The top-end stock configuration, priced at $2,229, includes a 3.3-gigahertz Core i5, a 2-terabyte Fusion Drive, and Radeon R9 M395 graphics.

In each case though shoppers can customize their order for even better perofrmance. In the case of the top-end model, this includes options like a 4-gigahertz Core i7 processor, up to 32 gigabytes of RAM, and up to 3 terabytes of Fusion Drive space, or 1 terabyte of pure flash storage. For faster graphics, buyers can pick a Radeon R9 M395X card with 4 gigabytes of VRAM. Stock models are shipping as quickly as Oct. 15. Built-to-order configurations will take longer.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/15...-displays-intel-skylake-cpus-starting-at-1799