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ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
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Do you have any sources to back up these wild claims?
As explained in the post above mine, these really aren't wild claims and should be taken as facts instead. Considering that Zhaoxin is facing US sanctions since they can't use TSMC, the US government also likely ordered Microsoft to stop providing services to Zhaoxin ...

There simply is no future for Windows in China because the America won't ever allow it and the CCP will never accept a future where their own citizens don't use domestically designed hardware ...

Zhaoxin CPUs as it stands aren't compatible with Windows 11 and the American government won't give Microsoft the greenlight either to support them ...
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,141
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As explained in the post above mine, these really aren't wild claims and should be taken as facts instead.
So, I looked into it a bit. A very little bit.


Looks more like Win11 specifically can't be run on most Chinese computers since TPM chips are outright banned? Until MS makes an exception or figures out how to support Chinese hardware (TCM), it looks like Win11 is a non-starter there for regular users.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
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So, I looked into it a bit. A very little bit.


Looks more like Win11 specifically can't be run on most Chinese computers since TPM chips are outright banned? Until MS makes an exception or figures out how to support Chinese hardware (TCM), it looks like Win11 is a non-starter there for regular users.
The TPM requirement doesn't necessarily refute what I posted. Both reasons can be true regardless. Zhaoxin is on the US government's hitlist radar despite the the fact that they don't export anything ...

Also the CETC (China Electronics Technology Group ) is under US sanctions as well so I doubt we'll ever see a Chinese version of Windows 11 too since they were a part of a JV with Microsoft to bring Windows 10 for China. Microsoft is straight up barred from working with either Zhaoxin or CETC ...

Windows as a platform is forever out of China's reach in the future so the CCP will likely start mandating installations of Unity OS systems for the public by either next year or the year after that ...
 

JasonLD

Senior member
Aug 22, 2017
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The TPM requirement doesn't necessarily refute what I posted. Both reasons can be true regardless. Zhaoxin is on the US government's hitlist radar despite the the fact that they don't export anything ...

Also the CETC (China Electronics Technology Group ) is under US sanctions as well so I doubt we'll ever see a Chinese version of Windows 11 too since they were a part of a JV with Microsoft to bring Windows 10 for China. Microsoft is straight up barred from working with either Zhaoxin or CETC ...

Windows as a platform is forever out of China's reach in the future so the CCP will likely start mandating installations of Unity OS systems for the public by either next year or the year after that ...
MS even made Windows 10 Chinese Government Edition. :D MS will probably find a way to negotiate with CCP to release specific version of Windows 11 for China without TPM requirement.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
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MS even made Windows 10 Chinese Government Edition. :D MS will probably find a way to negotiate with CCP to release specific version of Windows 11 for China without TPM requirement.
It's not the approval of the CCP that Microsoft needs to seek. It's that Microsoft must seek approval from the US government in order to make it happen ... :smilingimp:
 
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ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
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I don't think that is the case and the issue isn't as big as some people making it out to be. I think Win 11 is just TCM support away from launching in Chinese market. ;)
It's not just Microsoft that released the Chinese version of Windows 10. It was a JV between Microsoft AND the CETC (China Electronics Technology Group ) that released the Chinese version of Windows 10. Until the US government decides to rescind their sanctions against CETC, a Chinese version of Windows 11 is a non-starter ...

It's simply not a case of some banned hardware module. It's that without the cooperation of a certified JV from the CCP, there can be no more launches of new versions of Windows in the Chinese market ...

There's a reason why the CCP are serious about their Unity OS project with 2000+ employees actively working on it and they already have WeChat running on the new platform which is a good chunk of a Chinese citizens use cases for a digital device ...
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
9,682
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As explained in the post above mine, these really aren't wild claims and should be taken as facts instead. Considering that Zhaoxin is facing US sanctions since they can't use TSMC, the US government also likely ordered Microsoft to stop providing services to Zhaoxin ...

There simply is no future for Windows in China because the America won't ever allow it and the CCP will never accept a future where their own citizens don't use domestically designed hardware ...

Zhaoxin CPUs as it stands aren't compatible with Windows 11 and the American government won't give Microsoft the greenlight either to support them ...
That's a lot of words to say "no, I don't have any sources". I can't even find any article about the supposed ban on sub-16nm TSMC parts, never mind any orders to Microsoft.

It's much easier to slip into conspiratorial thinking than to accept that Zhaoxin just hasn't been able to deliver. It's all because of the evil US government! Definitely not just failure to execute!

Intel has had their roadmap slip by multiple years. AMD's pre-Zen execution was a disaster. Building CPUs is really hard, and we shouldn't be surprised that Zhaoxin are behind.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
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That's a lot of words to say "no, I don't have any sources". I can't even find any article about the supposed ban on sub-16nm TSMC parts, never mind any orders to Microsoft.
It's good to know that we've already established that my conclusion isn't going to change regardless!

It's much easier to slip into conspiratorial thinking than to accept that Zhaoxin just hasn't been able to deliver. It's all because of the evil US government! Definitely not just failure to execute!
Considering how Huawei and many other Chinese design firms are facing blackouts in services from TSMC or that the US are blocking exports of EUV machines to China, it's pretty much safe to say that we can assume that the US government is systematically sabotaging China's domestic semiconductor industry. How about you start providing evidence showing otherwise ?

Intel has had their roadmap slip by multiple years. AMD's pre-Zen execution was a disaster. Building CPUs is really hard, and we shouldn't be surprised that Zhaoxin are behind.
Seeing as how Phytium which is another Chinese chip design firm are blocked from using TSMC, I'd say that the case behind Zhaoxin isn't isolated at all since they're listed as being under US sanctions. Am I somehow supposed to entertain your claim that it's just a pure coincidence that Zhaoxin's failure is isolated to themselves rather than any potential external factors when their past history of having prior success with foundries such as HLMC or TSMC says the opposite and the fact other Chinese design firms have been failing as well due to these recent external factors too ? I'm pretty sure you have an even less solid basis than I do for my own claims ...

You're starting to argue in bad faith ...
 
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NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
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Considering how Huawei and many other Chinese design firms are facing blackouts in services from TSMC or that the US are blocking exports of EUV machines to China, it's pretty much safe to say that we can assume that the US government is systematically sabotaging China's domestic semiconductor industry. How about you start providing evidence showing otherwise ?
Yes, there are well documented cases such as Huawei being blocked. And when the US government does these things, there is clear documentation. https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/lists-of-parties-of-concern/entity-list Go download that list, and look for any sign of Zhaoxin on there. They're not there.

Seeing as how Phytium which is another Chinese chip design firm are blocked from using TSMC, I'd say that the case behind Zhaoxin isn't isolated at all since they're listed as being under US sanctions. Am I somehow supposed to entertain your claim that it's just a pure coincidence that Zhaoxin's failure is isolated to themselves rather than any potential external factors when their past history of having prior success with foundries such as HLMC or TSMC says the opposite and the fact other Chinese design firms have been failing as well due to these recent external factors too ? I'm pretty sure you have an even less solid basis than I do for my own claims ...

You're starting to argue in bad faith ...
Phytium are on the entity list. Zhaoxin are not on the entity list.

Did you put the wrong link for your "listed" link? Nothing on that page lists sanctions. (Unless the mobile version of that page is not displaying something? I'm on my phone.)

I'm well aware that the US are putting pressure on various Chinese chipmakers. This may well be part of why we haven't seen new Zhaoxin parts, even if indirectly- their management (or their CCP backers) may not think it wise to invest hundreds of millions in developing a new x86 product when they may get targeted by the US. It's a definite possibility!

But there is still zero evidence for your initial claim. Zhaoxin are not barred from using TSMC. They are not under any sanctions.
 
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ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
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Phytium are on the entity list. Zhaoxin are not on the entity list.

Did you put the wrong link for your "listed" link? Nothing on that page lists sanctions. (Unless the mobile version of that page is not displaying something? I'm on my phone.)

I'm well aware that the US are putting pressure on various Chinese chipmakers. This may well be part of why we haven't seen new Zhaoxin parts, even if indirectly- their management (or their CCP backers) may not think it wise to invest hundreds of millions in developing a new x86 product when they may get targeted by the US. It's a definite possibility!

But there is still zero evidence for your initial claim. Zhaoxin are not barred from using TSMC. They are not under any sanctions.
I'll concede that I can't find any information about US sanctions on Zhaoxin but know this much ...

There are currently no Chinese design firms who have been able to use TSMC's 7nm and below process technology outside of Huawei in the past so you can't deny the possibility that Zhaoxin is being systematically affected like the others are even if they aren't explicitly black listed so there's still reasons to think that they're been blocked from using TSMC behind the scenes ...

Even if Zhaoxin is able to use TSMC's more advanced process technology, it doesn't change my initial conclusion the US government is still blocking Microsoft from working with an approved JV by the CCP so it's not some dumb security hardware module that's limiting the official release of Windows 11 in China like everyone else here believes when the CCP requires foreign companies to work with JVs or partners to meet their standards if they want to bring their products for the Chinese market ...
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
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I'll concede that I can't find any information about US sanctions on Zhaoxin but know this much ...

There are currently no Chinese design firms who have been able to use TSMC's 7nm and below process technology outside of Huawei in the past so you can't deny the possibility that Zhaoxin is being systematically affected like the others are even if they aren't explicitly black listed so there's still reasons to think that they're been blocked from using TSMC behind the scenes ...

Even if Zhaoxin is able to use TSMC's more advanced process technology, it doesn't change my initial conclusion the US government is still blocking Microsoft from working with an approved JV by the CCP so it's not some dumb security hardware module that's limiting the official release of Windows 11 in China like everyone else here believes when the CCP requires foreign companies to work with JVs or partners to meet their standards if they want to bring their products for the Chinese market ...
Sure- I absolutely accept that it could be a possibility. Agencies could be surreptitiously applying pressure behind the scenes. It's a very plausible scenario! And I would not be at all surprised if it were happening. China and the US are fighting a technology cold war- China is forcing Western companies to work with joint ventures in order to access the market, meaning that they are handing over IP to Chinese companies. (Look at ARM China for the worst-case scenario of how that can work out.) And America is using sanctions to cripple Chinese companies like Huawei- supposedly over security reasons, but no doubt there are other reasons like wanting to protect American companies from competition. Given most of these companies do have connections to the CCP and the Chinese military, they are easy targets for sanctions.

And yes, you were right about Microsoft's joint venture- I haven't seen it reported on anywhere, but yes, CETC are on the Entity List, so Microsoft are now blocked from working with them on Windows 11. So, yes- I take it back, you were right on that!

I don't think that your initial characterisation of that as

US government is actively working with Microsoft to sabotage compatibility with Windows
was accurate- Microsoft, like most Western companies, are very keen to sell their products to China! That's the reason that they made the joint venture in the first place, so that they can access the world's largest market, and make money. Most capitalist companies will value profits over national interests. (See also AMD's deal with THATIC.)

I just object to speculation being presented as hard fact. Just because something is a plausible explanation, it does not mean that it is the only explanation. You've taken one piece of solid information and done a lot of extrapolation from there, and then presented all of it as fact- which just muddied the waters! If you had just talked about the Microsoft block, and linked to some sources for that, then it would have been much more helpful- especially if you then presented the speculation as speculation.
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
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The only external factor really affecting Zhaoxin however is officially only TSMC. Zhaoxin got caught selling ZX-C(+)/ZX-E systems to the PLA sometime between 2018-2020. Which TSMC has rules against giving leading edge nodes to military procured products in regards to China.

The internal factors for Zhaoxin is the Made in 2025 plan which is basically make semiconductors 70% in China by 2025. As well as the more aggressive 3-5-2 plan which is semiconductors 100% made in China by 2023. //A lot of Intel and AMD systems have to get replaced by Zhaoxin's x86.

Since, TSMC in Taiwan by Beijing critics aren't considered in the Mainland, it is thus not in China. While, TSMC Nanjing is in the mainland thus can be used for either plan.

Basically, if Zhaoxin wants to get Government and Military procurement they need to be fabbed domestically by internal factors. External factors is Zhaoxin got caught by TSMC thus got restricted against leading edge.

Hence, the roadmap change from May 2018 with KH40k being 7nm to the July 2020 roadmap with the KH40k being 16nm.

----
Zhaoxin in 2020 has already paid up for x86 chipset-related technologies for $139 million and x86 processor-related technologies for $118 million from VIA.

"VIA Technologies ... it is selling certain intellectual property rights (excluding patent rights) related to chip products to Shanghai Zhaoxin, ..., in a transaction valued at $139 million."
"VIABASE will sell certain intellectual property rights (excluding patents) related to processor technology and data to Shanghai Zhaoxin, in a transaction valued at $118 million."

Which I assume already covers CNS/CHA, etc. Since, those were produced before 2020, thus within the spectrum of the purchase. So, 16nm KX-7k/KH-40k having 16nm CNS cores is definitely happening.

On the front of TPM 2.0 support, KX-6000 supports it but it is dependent on if it is domestic(no TPM support) or global(TPM supported). I however think KX-6000 isn't targeted at Windows 11, but KX-7000 can be because of it having the more modern core being used. Thus, supporting the changes between Win10 and Win11 in regards to Spectre and other security hole fixes without performance loss.

KX-6000 DIY/OEM Win11 => Unlikely occurrence && KX-7000 DIY/OEM Win11 => Likely occurrence.
 
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