Intel Optane AMA - Starts Wednesday at 11am

[jsimenhoff]

Intel Optane AMA with the Intel Optane Team


AnandTech is proud to announce the upcoming guest in our featured Community Series -- ASK ME ANYTHING.

On Wednesday, September 26th through Thursday, September 27th the Intel Optane Team will join us in a live AMA on the AnandTech Memory and Storage Forums. Have a question about Optane? Now’s your chance to speak with Intel directly. Log into the forums to join the discussion and learn about the latest news on the future of Intel and Optane storage technology.

This thread will be unlocked, open and live for 48 hours starting at 11:00am ET on Wednesday, September 26th. Questions will be moderated and supervised by AnandTech Assistant Community Manager, Joshua Simenhoff, as well as our full team of moderators.

Intel Optane Technology Team

• Bill Leszinske, Intel Corporate Vice President, Strategic Planning, Marketing, and Business Development.
• Chris Tobias, Director, Intel Optane Technology Acceleration Team.
• James Myers, Director, Data Center Storage Solutions Architecture
• Avinash Shetty, Senior SSD Strategic Planner and Product Line Manager
• Roger Corell, Marketing Manager

Ask Me Anything Rules

• No tech support questions, as these require in-depth personal follow-up and diagnostics.

• All Rules of Conduct apply.

• Keep questions direct and to the point.

• Avoid opinion bias, as in, "Why are all your products awesome/horrible?"

• Be respectful of our guests--no insults, no leading questions.

• Do not post duplicate questions or repost your question multiple times.

• Not all questions may be answered. Questions may not be answered in the order in which they are received or posted.

To reiterate: No opinion bias, insults, leading questions, or breaking the Rules of Conduct. Breaking these rules may result in a one-day ban.

Only registered users will be able to ask questions, so if you haven’t yet, be sure to register now for your chance to participate!

The official representatives will reply periodically, using a recognized and verified account.

Please join us on this date to throw your questions into the mix and ask Intel Optane what you've always wanted to ask!

What: Ask Me Anything – Intel Optane

When: Wednesday, September 26th, 11am ET

Where: The AnandTech Forums!

Who: The Intel Optane Team

 

[kernelc]

My questions: being byte-addressable, is power loss protection required on Optane drives? If so, why? Does the controller buffer use data? Any chances to have smaller, m2 drives with powerloss protection?

If not required, why the Enterprise Optane drives have supercap?

 

[edzieba]

Optane is built on a process unlike any of Intel's other products. Are there any plans to fab non-storage ICs on the Chalcogenide process?

 

[Dayman1225]

Now that you are no longer collaborating with Micron on developing 3DXP/Optane after Gen2, do you plan to fab it at the Dalian Fab in China as well as your 3DNAND? (RIP IMFT)

Also relating to Gen2 Optane what kind of improvements can we expect? And when can we expect to see it? Late next year? Assuming you can even answer these questions

Oh, and the 1.5TB models of the 905P, do those use 8 stacked die packages?

Thanks.

 

[Justinus]

There were a lot of extremely high performance figures given for the Optane technology before its official launch in SSD's, compared relative to DRAM and NAND. It seems like the SSD's are not performing anywhere near these figures, and it also seems like the general consensus is that the bottleneck is likely the SSD controller and architecture.

1. Is this accurate?
2. If this is accurate, how does Intel plan to improve or change their controller architecture to better exploit the abilities of the Optane technology for SSD's?
3. Is there a large change in controller tech we can expect from Gen 2?
   
4. If not, is this something that will simply be iterated and improved every generation?

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

My questions: being byte-addressable, is power loss protection required on Optane drives? If so, why? Does the controller buffer use data? Any chances to have smaller, m2 drives with powerloss protection?

If not required, why the Enterprise Optane drives have supercap?

Thanks for the question, Kernelc. Our Optane drives do have power loss protection to protect customer data. We have released a 100GB M.2.

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

Optane is built on a process unlike any of Intel's other products. Are there any plans to fab non-storage ICs on the Chalcogenide process?

Thanks for the question, Edzieba. We can build 3D NAND and Optane Technology in the same Fab.

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

Now that you are no longer collaborating with Micron on developing 3DXP/Optane after Gen2, do you plan to fab it at the Dalian Fab in China as well as your 3DNAND? (RIP IMFT)

Also relating to Gen2 Optane what kind of improvements can we expect? And when can we expect to see it? Late next year? Assuming you can even answer these questions

Oh, and the 1.5TB models of the 905P, do those use 8 stacked die packages?

Thanks.

We can build Optane technology in multiple factories, but we're still building it in IMFT--which is still jointly owned with Micron. We'll talk more about Gen 2 Optane technology when we announce products! Thanks for the questions, Dayman1225.

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

There were a lot of extremely high performance figures given for the Optane technology before its official launch in SSD's, compared relative to DRAM and NAND. It seems like the SSD's are not performing anywhere near these figures, and it also seems like the general consensus is that the bottleneck is likely the SSD controller and architecture.

1. Is this accurate?
2. If this is accurate, how does Intel plan to improve or change their controller architecture to better exploit the abilities of the Optane technology for SSD's?
3. Is there a large change in controller tech we can expect from Gen 2?
   
4. If not, is this something that will simply be iterated and improved every generation?

Thanks for your question. Optane technology is a combination of 3D XPoint plus our controller technology, software building blocks, and IP. You can expect increased performance as we release new products.

 

[Lutfij]

Hello and welcome to Anandtech, fellas

Here are my questions:
In your experience, if you're allowed to share, i.e, how far has Optane gone in terms of system's adoption/integration?
I just recently caught site of an video of one of my favorite artists, BT or Brian Transeau as he's known otherwise, is Optane being adopted by professionals in a wide field or are you seeing a particular group of people adopting it?
If I had to educate a potential customer or client, in a short space of time, how would I approach them with what Intel's Optane can do for them? Should I be looking at their usage scenario's or how they work?

 

[zilong]

I have some questions about Optane's performance for database applications.

1. Are you working with any database providers (Microsoft, PostgreSQL, etc.) to help them take full advantage of Optane's distinctive characteristics (latency/mixed workload perf/low queue depth perf)?
   
2. Very broadly speaking, how do you currently expect Optane DIMMs' bandwidth and latency to compare to DDR4?
3. Do you anticipate it being possible to create a RAID of Optane DIMMs?
4. Is there anything else that you want to say about Optane and database performance?

Thanks!

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

Hello and welcome to Anandtech, fellas

Here are my questions:
In your experience, if you're allowed to share, i.e, how far has Optane gone in terms of system's adoption/integration?
I just recently caught site of an video of one of my favorite artists, BT or Brian Transeau as he's known otherwise, is Optane being adopted by professionals in a wide field or are you seeing a particular group of people adopting it?
If I had to educate a potential customer or client, in a short space of time, how would I approach them with what Intel's Optane can do for them? Should I be looking at their usage scenario's or how they work?

Thanks for the question, Lutfij. When it comes to professionals on workstations, dealing in content creation, gaming, and high-end workloads, Optane SSDs are great. For everyone else, Optane memory is a great solution to make your system faster and more responsive.

 

[kernelc]

Thanks for the question, Kernelc. Our Optane drives do have power loss protection to protect customer data. We have released a 100GB M.2.

Does this apply to *any* Optane drive (ie: even consumer one), or it is an enterprise-specific feature? In other words: do the M2 version and Optane 905 provide full powerloss protection, similar to the X4800?

Thanks.

 

[Bill Leszinske]

Does this apply to *any* Optane drive (ie: even consumer one), or it is an enterprise-specific feature? In other words: do the M2 version and Optane 905 provide full powerloss protection, similar to the X4800?

Thanks.

The power loss protection capability is built into our Enterprise SSDs. This includes the AIC, U.2 and M.2 form factors.

 

[IronWing]

How well do Optane SSD drives perform for long term file storage? Is the performance better than NAND for this application? Is there an expected failure time for long term storage of dead files? If I save a file and don't access it for three to five years, will it still be there when I do need it? Thank you.

 

[nosirrahx]

1. Are there any plans to create Optane cache RAID controllers? Eliminating the need for a BBU jumps out as a major benefit right off the bat.

2. Are there any plans to create AIO SSDs with both NAND and Optane? I am picturing a large and cheap bank of NAND paired with 64GB of Optane cache all in one device.

3. I use Optane quite a bit but in configurations that are not officially supported. For example a 2TB SATA SSD paired with the 800P has both better performance and a better price than high end NVMe 2TB SSDs. Is there a reason this is not officially supported? Will configurations like this ever be officially supported?

 

[Luminair]

The real-world performance benefits of Optane in consumer workloads are said to be less than they could be because Windows and other consumer apps don't know how to use Optane.

Is there a timeline on when there will be a generational SOFTWARE performance boost for Optane users? Will the software performance boost be bigger than the boost from new generations of hardware?

 

[edzieba]

Thanks for the question, Edzieba. We can build 3D NAND and Optane Technology in the same Fab.

Maybe I should rephrase: are there any plans to build non-storage ICs based on similar Ovonic (phase-change glass) circuit devices to Optane? Not just operating different processes in the same fab.

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

I have some questions about Optane's performance for database applications.

1. Are you working with any database providers (Microsoft, PostgreSQL, etc.) to help them take full advantage of Optane's distinctive characteristics (latency/mixed workload perf/low queue depth perf)?
   
2. Very broadly speaking, how do you currently expect Optane DIMMs' bandwidth and latency to compare to DDR4?
3. Do you anticipate it being possible to create a RAID of Optane DIMMs?
4. Is there anything else that you want to say about Optane and database performance?

Thanks!

Databases are a great fit for Optane technology. Yes, we are working with all the major database companies. Here is an example of our work with the Developers of My SQL: http://dimitrik.free.fr/blog/posts/mysql-performance-80-ga-iobound-tpcc.html
You can try it yourself here: https://tryoptane.intel.com/

We are building a developer community for optimizing software for Optane SSDs with our partners at Packet. You can join this community on Slack. Details are here: https://www.acceleratewithoptane.com/

Similarly, we are growing a developer community for optimizing software applications to take advantage of Persistence, aligned to the Intel Optane DC Persistent Memory DIMMs. More info here: http://pmem.io/pmdk/

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

How well do Optane SSD drives perform for long term file storage? Is the performance better than NAND for this application? Is there an expected failure time for long term storage of dead files? If I save a file and don't access it for three to five years, will it still be there when I do need it? Thank you.

Thanks, IronWing. Optane SSDs have the most benefits for acceleration application for dynamic data. Optane data persistence is the same as any other enterprise SSD, having data retention specifications of a minimum of 3 months in a power-off condition and end-of-endurance life. Optane endurance is significantly higher than NAND SSDs with a capability of up to 60 drive-writes-per-day, as compared to 3 drive-writes-per-day with Intel's highest production NAND SSD today. NAND or HDDs may be better aligned for storing static, cold data.

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

1. Are there any plans to create Optane cache RAID controllers? Eliminating the need for a BBU jumps out as a major benefit right off the bat.

2. Are there any plans to create AIO SSDs with both NAND and Optane? I am picturing a large and cheap bank of NAND paired with 64GB of Optane cache all in one device.

3. I use Optane quite a bit but in configurations that are not officially supported. For example a 2TB SATA SSD paired with the 800P has both better performance and a better price than high end NVMe 2TB SSDs. Is there a reason this is not officially supported? Will configurations like this ever be officially supported?

Thanks, Nosirrahx. I recommend you take a look at Intel Virtual Raid on CPU (VROC). VROC both reduces TCO and accelerates performance. It works well with Optane SSDs today. Take a look here: https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...00024498/memory-and-storage/ssd-software.html

Regarding question no. 2, that's a good idea for us to consider for forward-looking products! Regarding question no. 3, it is officially supported. You can find out more here: https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...nsumer-ssds/intel-optane-ssd-800p-series.html

 

[nosirrahx]

Thanks, Nosirrahx. I recommend you take a look at Intel Virtual Raid on CPU (VROC). VROC both reduces TCO and accelerates performance. It works well with Optane SSDs today. Take a look here: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000024498/memory-and-storage/ssd-software.html

I am already using VROC (4 900P in VROC 0) on one of my workstations. I am asking about the future of hardware RAID controllers. With Optane DIMMs on the way it would seem that RAID controllers that support both DDR4 and Optane DIMMs could offer more flexibility than is currently available.

Regarding question no. 2, that's a good idea for us to consider for forward-looking products! Regarding question no. 3, it is officially supported. You can find out more here: https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...nsumer-ssds/intel-optane-ssd-800p-series.html

This is what I am referring to:

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/do...-Driver-for-System-Acceleration?product=99745

This download is valid for the product(s) listed below.

• Intel® Optane™ Memory M10 Series (16GB, M.2 80mm PCIe 3.0, 20nm, 3D XPoint™)
• Intel® Optane™ Memory M10 Series (32GB, M.2 80mm PCIe 3.0, 20nm, 3D XPoint™)
• Intel® Optane™ Memory M10 Series (64GB, M.2 80mm PCIe 3.0, 20nm, 3D XPoint™)
• Intel® Optane™ Memory Series (16GB, M.2 80mm PCIe 3.0, 20nm, 3D Xpoint)
• Intel® Optane™ Memory Series (32GB, M.2 80mm PCIe 3.0, 20nm, 3D Xpoint)

The 800P is not mentioned. Neither is the 900P which also works with Optane cache.

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

The real-world performance benefits of Optane in consumer workloads are said to be less than they could be because Windows and other consumer apps don't know how to use Optane.

Is there a timeline on when there will be a generational SOFTWARE performance boost for Optane users? Will the software performance boost be bigger than the boost from new generations of hardware?

Thanks, Luminair. We're continuing to work with all major OS providers and software vendors to enhance software performance and remove storage I/O latency. The ecosystem will continue to improve software to take advantage of hardware. Software development is a continuous evolution. Some public examples are Star Citizen and DaVinci Resolve. Check out our keynote from Computex for more info
https://newsroom.intel.com/press-kits/2018-computex/. The relevant part starts 54 minutes in.

 

[Drazick]

Hello,
Thank you for doing this and approaching the community of users.

I would like to ask few questions from a home user point of view.

1. Do you ever see Optane Technology approaching the price point of SSD's or will it always stay a premium product for non home users?
   Will we, as home users (Maybe advanced, yet still not industry) should expect begin able to purchase Optane based drives instead of our SSD's?
   How long will it take, if ever, to Optane to reach ~20 Cents / Gigabyte price point?
2. Intel used to have the best in house made SSD's controllers.
   Yet in the past few years you stopped developing those and used 3rd party controllers.
   Will we ever see 3rd party controllers for Optane Drives?
   Will we ever see an Optane derived Controller of Intel used in Intel's SSD?

Thank You.

 

[Intel_Optane_Team]

Hello,
Thank you for doing this and approaching the community of users.

I would like to ask few questions from a home user point of view.

1. Do you ever see Optane Technology approaching the price point of SSD's or will it always stay a premium product for non home users?
   Will we, as home users (Maybe advanced, yet still not industry) should expect begin able to purchase Optane based drives instead of our SSD's?
   How long will it take, if ever, to Optane to reach ~20 Cents / Gigabyte price point?
2. Intel used to have the best in house made SSD's controllers.
   Yet in the past few years you stopped developing those and used 3rd party controllers.
   Will we ever see 3rd party controllers for Optane Drives?
   Will we ever see an Optane derived Controller of Intel used in Intel's SSD?

Thank You.

Thanks, Drazick. Optane SSDs are industry-leading solutions and, as such, are currently positioned as a premium product. For a more cost-effective capacity offering, you can use Optane Memory to speed up slower-capacity storage. All Optane solutions are currently built with Intel-designed controllers, and that remains the plan for future offerings.