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TheELF

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Cheaper than Optane DIMMs for sure. What they are not going to be, however, is dependent on software optimization, unlike optane DIMMs.
Optane DIMMS show up as RAM and are a fraction of the cost of real RAM.

Also what, if you have a piece of software that doesn't use a high enough amount of data bandwidth it will automatically do so if on pcie4?!?!
Even with zero optimization, with DIMMs you save the time it needs to copy all your data from and to the ram because it's already there.
With PCIe you need an amount of CPU just to shuffle the data around,that's processing power you could be using on doing your work.
 

IntelUser2000

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Cheaper than Optane DIMMs for sure. What they are not going to be, however, is dependent on software optimization, unlike optane DIMMs.
It depends on the use case. The 128GB Optane DIMM goes for $500-600. The 375GB P4800X has an official price listing of $1520, but can be found for $1100. So its 20% cheaper per GB. Which is not big for the performance difference.

If you decide to use P4800X to extend memory with the Memory Drive software, it adds $500 to the price. So potentially it can be cheaper and faster.

Optane DIMMS show up as RAM and are a fraction of the cost of real RAM.

Even with zero optimization, with DIMMs you save the time it needs to copy all your data from and to the ram because it's already there.
Optane DIMMs can be used in 3 modes(or should I say 2.5 modes?).

Memory Mode
App Direct mode
Storage over App direct

The first is exactly as it sounds. It works as memory. The third works as a 4K block storage device, but with 3-4us latency, which is lot lower than 10us of the PCIe P4800X.

The regular App Direct is the most complicated but has the most potential. Memory mode data isn't persistent and after power shutdown the contents are not guaranteed. App Direct requires software changes but is persistent RAM.

Memory mode and App Direct are the fastest at about 300ns.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the LGA1200 boards this year support PCIe 4.0?
According to leaks, Rocketlake supports PCIe 4.0.
 

lobz

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Optane DIMMS show up as RAM and are a fraction of the cost of real RAM.

Also what, if you have a piece of software that doesn't use a high enough amount of data bandwidth it will automatically do so if on pcie4?!?!
Even with zero optimization, with DIMMs you save the time it needs to copy all your data from and to the ram because it's already there.
With PCIe you need an amount of CPU just to shuffle the data around,that's processing power you could be using on doing your work.
You're trying to say that it's a big enough effect to offset intel's masive processing power deficit? Don't forget, we're talking about 64 core TRs in a month.

It's pointless anyway, with DDR5 it'll be open to AMD systems as well, so... until then, I hope you and intel PR can make some companies believe that half the computing power is enough because they can buy more expensive storage instead.
 
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TheELF

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You're trying to say that it's a big enough effect to offset intel's masive processing power deficit? Don't forget, we're talking about 64 core TRs in a month.

It's pointless anyway, with DDR5 it'll be open to AMD systems as well, so... until then, I hope you and intel PR can make some companies believe that half the computing power is enough because they can buy more expensive storage instead.
I don't know if you have been sleeping during the CES or if you are just trying to troll.
AMDs 64core TR will have to compete against platforms with practically limitless amounts of cores.
Intel released CPUs on PCIe
and on m.2
They even put a whole system on a PCI board
You are only confined by the power supply you can find and the amount of cards your mobo can drive.

Optane dimm can also only work if the CPU itself knows that it can use RAM directly as storage.
 

Markfw

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I don't know if you have been sleeping during the CES or if you are just trying to troll.
AMDs 64core TR will have to compete against platforms with practically limitless amounts of cores.
Intel released CPUs on PCIe
and on m.2
They even put a whole system on a PCI board
You are only confined by the power supply you can find and the amount of cards your mobo can drive.

Optane dimm can also only work if the CPU itself knows that it can use RAM directly as storage.
I don't know what you are smoking... The first one is about a box that has discrete graphic, and says it will play games. And a 500 watt PSU. Not a lot of horsepower there.
The second link is about M.2 cards. Storage. When I buy a Taichi TRX40 motherboard, I get 6 M.2 slots.
The third has a 4u server with up to 8 CPU's, does not specify what kind. Well, the dual 7742 Rome servers are 2u, so in 4u they offer 4 CPU's, and since they outpace the best Intel has at 2 to 1, that the equivalent of 8 of their best. At a much lower power usage.
And why are you bringing Optane into this ? What does that have to do with computing power ?

Good Intel PR, huh

Oh, and I can buy a pair of 64 core Rome processors with a motherboard on newegg for $15,000. And it has benchmarks available, and world records. Where can you buy the systems you linked ? where are the benchmarks ? where are the world records ??

Its all smoke and mirrors.
 
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lobz

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I don't know if you have been sleeping during the CES or if you are just trying to troll.
AMDs 64core TR will have to compete against platforms with practically limitless amounts of cores.
Intel released CPUs on PCIe
and on m.2
They even put a whole system on a PCI board
You are only confined by the power supply you can find and the amount of cards your mobo can drive.

Optane dimm can also only work if the CPU itself knows that it can use RAM directly as storage.
And you accuse me of trolling? It's like you write some complete nonsense to me while sounding like you've just destroyed my deepest beliefs, and then you insert 3 random links with the word 'Intel' in it to further cement your troll destroying superiority, but it's like you didn't even bother opening the links yourself. Really sorry for trolling you even more, but I must ask: what on Earth does any of that have to do with Intel's massive compute deficit vs the 64C/128T Threadripper HEDTs / Workstations that are coming in 3 weeks?
 

HutchinsonJC

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Apr 15, 2007
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The 2nd link TheELF posted wasn't really about storage as Mark has mentioned.

It's an M.2 Neural Network processor: NNP I-1000. It sounds like they could have 12 of these on a system. Anyway, looks interesting, and while it's a very different animal than what most of x86 is and does, a point that makes me wonder why TheELF tried to bring attention to it, I didn't think it fair to dismiss the link as being storage.
 

Markfw

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The 2nd link TheELF posted wasn't really about storage as Mark has mentioned.

It's an M.2 Neural Network processor: NNP I-1000. It sounds like they could have 12 of these on a system. Anyway, looks interesting, and while it's a very different animal than what most of x86 is and does, a point that makes me wonder why TheELF tried to bring attention to it, I didn't think it fair to dismiss the link as being storage.
I guess I am not farmiliar with all the new buzzwords. And new products that are not even reviewed yet,. All of those links had NO benchmarks, and they were about products that you can't buy yet.

When I saw 64 core, I thought it was talking about Rome. Those I can buy today, and blow away anything that Intel has. The 3970x is available today, and blows away anything in HEDT that Intel has, or even servers for that matter.
 

scannall

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I guess I am not farmiliar with all the new buzzwords. And new products that are not even reviewed yet,. All of those links had NO benchmarks, and they were about products that you can't buy yet.

When I saw 64 core, I thought it was talking about Rome. Those I can buy today, and blow away anything that Intel has. The 3970x is available today, and blows away anything in HEDT that Intel has, or even servers for that matter.
Like you, I think the only parts that actually matter are ones shipping and in service. Answering available tech with marketing and vaporware isn't really much of an answer. I don't think Intel is doomed or anything like that. And they will at some point in time have some very nice products. But today is not that day. And pretty unlikely for the next couple of years. But when they do have something shipping I will read the reviews with interest.
 
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Markfw

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Like you, I think the only parts that actually matter are ones shipping and in service. Answering available tech with marketing and vaporware isn't really much of an answer. I don't think Intel is doomed or anything like that. And they will at some point in time have some very nice products. But today is not that day. And pretty unlikely for the next couple of years. But when they do have something shipping I will read the reviews with interest.
Exactly. No way are they going broke, but right now they have NOTHING in anything but possibly laptops that is worth buying. Outclassed and out performed in every metric in:
Desktop (except VERY high end gaming)
HEDT
Servers
 

lobz

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Feb 10, 2017
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The 2nd link TheELF posted wasn't really about storage as Mark has mentioned.

It's an M.2 Neural Network processor: NNP I-1000. It sounds like they could have 12 of these on a system. Anyway, looks interesting, and while it's a very different animal than what most of x86 is and does, a point that makes me wonder why TheELF tried to bring attention to it, I didn't think it fair to dismiss the link as being storage.
But it's more than fair to dismiss the link as having literally nothing to do with what @TheELF replied me to: Computing performance difference between Intel HEDT systems and workstations against AMD's Threadripper as a deciding factor to determine if Optane DIMMs would or would not make much, if any sense when they mean being locked into Intel CPUs. These are existing x86 products aimed at and used in x86 markets. Right now. Even as we're writing these comments. That's why I couldn't care less even if @Markfw had dismissed the link as being pregnant polar bears instead of storage, both the NNPs and the storage, maybe even the pregnant polar bears bear (;p) the same relevance to what I've said to @TheELF and to how he replied to me.
 

HutchinsonJC

Senior member
Apr 15, 2007
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But it's more than fair to dismiss the link as having literally nothing to do with
You quoted it: "And while it's a very different animal than what most of x86 is and does, a point that makes me wonder why TheELF tried to bring attention to it, I didn't think it fair to dismiss the link as being storage."

Can we move on?
 

lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
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You quoted it: "And while it's a very different animal than what most of x86 is and does, a point that makes me wonder why TheELF tried to bring attention to it, I didn't think it fair to dismiss the link as being storage."

Can we move on?
OK, I'll reiterate it an other way what my post meant. The way and tone TheELF used, followed him bringing attention to these points was totally incomprehensible and more than confusing enough, that even the fact that it threw Mark so off didn't make any difference: TheELF's point, even when misunderstood by Mark, didn't make it stand any less relevant than it was even when seen correctly.

I'd agree with you totally if the link showed how Optane DIMMs would be enough to offset intel's massive computing horsepower deficience against 64C TRs (3 weeks to go), and Mark dismissed it as being storage, that would be unfair. I didn't wanna sound derogatory, I just found your post showing Mark being unfair by carelesness and by not giving TheELF the benefit of the doubt.
Well, he did, he opened the link and actually read it, and found nothing relevant to the point TheELF made in such a stomping fashion, that's why I think it was pretty fair to dismiss it as being anything, because his reaction was not a discussion about the product/concept/prototype in the link.

Sorry man, that I wrote so much about it... you said move on and I can't move on till someone thinks I'm being hostile when I totally didn't want to be (with you)!
Maybe I should have just wrote you originally: Inaccurate? Most assuredly. Unfair? Absolutely not.

Can we finally move on, please? I'm sick of you wasting my time with this, @HutchinsonJC :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
 
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Markfw

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You quoted it: "And while it's a very different animal than what most of x86 is and does, a point that makes me wonder why TheELF tried to bring attention to it, I didn't think it fair to dismiss the link as being storage."

Can we move on?
OK, Let me give more detail. First, TheElf was saying in reference to the 64 core TRs, that Intel can answer with (and I quote from theelf)
"AMDs 64core TR will have to compete against platforms with practically limitless amounts of cores.
Intel released CPUs on PCIe "

In support of that he provided 3 links. NONE of the links show "practically limitless amounts of cores", but in fact from what I read, one has about 6 cpus with limited size and power. One had 8 cpu's in a 4u server configuration that again can't compete with dual 64 core Rome (which also has nothing to do with workstation).

In my rebuttal, I misread one of the 3 links, SORRY. But the bottom line is, his rebuttal did not apply to what he was trying to prove, and with products that do not yet exist, and have no benchmarks to prove that.

Are we agreed on this ?
 

HutchinsonJC

Senior member
Apr 15, 2007
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didn't make it stand any less relevant than it was even when seen correctly.
I said as much. And you quoted it. My point is all this extra fluff talking about it in my humble opinion needs to stop. These forums are supposed to be technical. Not Polar Bears.

I'd agree with you totally if the link showed how Optane DIMMs would be enough to offset intel's massive computing horsepower deficience against 64C TRs
No you wouldn't agree with me "if". Because the link doesn't show that. And I said that it doesn't show that. This whole bit is uncalled for. Being technical forums the only thing I tried to do was correct the incorrect dismissal Mark did by saying that the M.2 link provided by TheELF had something to do with storage, but me calling that out didn't make my argument pro-TheELF. And you quoted me basically saying as much so I'm not sure why this has to drag on.
 

HutchinsonJC

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Apr 15, 2007
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But the bottom line is, his rebuttal did not apply to what he was trying to prove, and with products that do not yet exist, and have no benchmarks to prove that.

Are we agreed on this ?
We were never in disagreement Mark. You quoted me saying basically the same thing, too.
 
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TheELF

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In support of that he provided 3 links. NONE of the links show "practically limitless amounts of cores", but in fact from what I read, one has about 6 cpus with limited size and power. One had 8 cpu's in a 4u server configuration that again can't compete with dual 64 core Rome (which also has nothing to do with workstation).
Are you serious with this?!
They are components, they are m.2 and pci cards and you can put as many into any system as that system has slots for.
Also the nervana one retains the x86 cores so all of them add x86 cores.

Also also they are the same exact skus as the laptop and desktop equivalents so you don't need any extra benchmarks and the only unknown is the clock rate they will be able to run up to,which would be limited only by how much power the slots can pass to the chips, and heat obviously.

Also also also these are proof of concepts, intel could release every CPU they make in the future in this manner,you will be able to update what you want and as much as you want instead of being forced to swap mobo+cpu.
 

IntelUser2000

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Are you serious with this?!
They are components, they are m.2 and pci cards and you can put as many into any system as that system has slots for.
Also the nervana one retains the x86 cores so all of them add x86 cores.
They're not comparable. The Intel M.2 Nervana with the Icelake cores are accelerators for inference, not general purpose.
 
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TheELF

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They're not comparable. The Intel M.2 Nervana with the Icelake cores are accelerators for inference, not general purpose.
The nervana cores yes but as I said they do have their x86 cores intact so there is nothing keeping you from using them as x86 cores.
 

IntelUser2000

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The nervana cores yes but as I said they do have their x86 cores intact so there is nothing keeping you from using them as x86 cores.
You can't compare that with a proper multi-processor system like with EPYC, they communicate using x4 PCIe links. For power they are in the -U envelope.
 
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TheELF

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You can't compare that with a proper multi-processor system like with EPYC, they communicate using x4 PCIe links. For power they are in the -U envelope.
Well the good thing with heavily parallel workloads is that the communication needed is next to nothing and lighter threaded things can run on individual CPUs.
 

IntelUser2000

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Well the good thing with heavily parallel workloads is that the communication needed is next to nothing and lighter threaded things can run on individual CPUs.
Why do you think its "next to nothing"?

The biggest area of focus on server CPUs outside of the cores themselves are the uncore and I/O portion so it actually scales in practical, real world workloads. Many actually fail due to this, despite the fact that the cores themselves may be competent otherwise.

The UPI interconnect in Intel server CPUs have a bandwidth of 40GB/s. Being a dedicated interconnect between CPUs, its also less latency. It's similar with AMD CPUs.

Unlike the x4 link which is higher latency and only 4GB/s bandwidth.

Inferencing is a whole another market.
 
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TheELF

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I'd agree with you totally if the link showed how Optane DIMMs would be enough to offset intel's massive computing horsepower deficience against 64C TRs (3 weeks to go)
Nobody made such a claim,this thread is about optane on pcie 4 and I just said that you don't need them on pcie4 on intel since you can put them on DIMM.
 

Markfw

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Well the good thing with heavily parallel workloads is that the communication needed is next to nothing and lighter threaded things can run on individual CPUs.
And you still have
1) no benchmarks
2) No product that you can buy anytime in the near future,.
3) Nothing that is desktop to compare to the 64 core Threadripper.

Edit: for that matter, since you are mentioning server hardware in one of your links, you have nothing that can touch Rome 64 core chips.

Again, are you trolling, or do you have any information on a product that you can buy in the next 30 days that compares to the 64 core threadripper ?????
 
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