Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[jpiniero]

Toms claims that the base die is using 22FFL (and not 10 nm as previously rumored). That's good if true.

 

[uzzi38]

Yay we can finally kill the N3 for tGPU rumour that has been taken as fact by far too many people. About bloody time.

 

[dullard]

Yay we can finally kill the N3 for tGPU rumour that has been taken as fact by far too many people. About bloody time.

Intel、Meteor Lakeで3Dチップレット技術を採用。計画通り2023年登場

Intelは、8月22日(現地時間)から行なわれる半導体設計に関する学会「HotChips」にて、同社が2023年に導入を計画しているクライアント向けSoC「Meteor Lake」(メテオレイク)の概要を明らかにする。

pc.watch.impress.co.jp

The only reason for the N3 rumor was from a disinformation campaign to discredit Intel. It was clear from a leaked Intel slide that N3 was going to be introduced with Arrow Lake, not Meteor Lake. Heck, that information was available before the Meteor Lake N3 rumor spread.

 

[uzzi38]

View attachment 66360

Intel、Meteor Lakeで3Dチップレット技術を採用。計画通り2023年登場

Intelは、8月22日(現地時間)から行なわれる半導体設計に関する学会「HotChips」にて、同社が2023年に導入を計画しているクライアント向けSoC「Meteor Lake」(メテオレイク)の概要を明らかにする。

pc.watch.impress.co.jp

The only reason for the N3 rumor was from a disinformation campaign to discredit Intel.

I meant the fact that it was even on N3 to begin with, and the only reason it was ever accepted by fact is this incredibly misleading slide from Intel which was displayed earlier this year:

 

[dullard]

I meant the fact that it was even on N3 to begin with, and the only reason it was ever accepted by fact is this incredibly misleading slide from Intel which was displayed earlier this year:

If someone takes that slide to mean Meteor Lake is on N3, then you must also take it to mean that Meteor Lake is on 20A. That would be an utterly ridiculous conclusion, since it would imply that Meteor Lake skips both Intel 4 and Intel 3. Therefore, it is obvious that the slide is not intended to imply Meteor Lake is on N3. Instead, it should be interpreted by the bold titles at the top of each column. Such as: these are examples of chips and processes that will be used with "Disaggregated" tiles.

• Notice how Alder Lake and Raptor Lake are examples of the bold "Hybrid" title at the top of that column.
• Notice how the 15 W and under Lunar Lake is in the "Ultra Low Power Performance" column.

 

[Exist50]

I meant the fact that it was even on N3 to begin with, and the only reason it was ever accepted by fact is this incredibly misleading slide from Intel which was displayed earlier this year:

View attachment 66361

Such a crock of utter BS

Nah, that rumor existed independent of that slide. I mean look at it. It says 20A in the same column, but no one's claiming 20A for MTL. There were a couple of "analysts" who "confirmed" that Intel was using N3 for the GPU tile, and that's how it became "fact". Trendforce seems to be going for the "two wrongs make a right" approach, while some (e.g. "SemiAnalysis") have been ignoring the obvious for now. Ffs, even SemiAccurate got this one right...

 

[uzzi38]

Nah, that rumor existed independent of that slide. I mean look at it. It says 20A in the same column, but no one's claiming 20A for MTL. There were a couple of "analysts" who "confirmed" that Intel was using N3 for the GPU tile, and that's how it became "fact". Trendforce seems to be going for the "two wrongs make a right" approach, while some (e.g. "SemiAnalysis") have been ignoring the obvious for now. Ffs, even SemiAccurate got this one right...

It was just a rumour before this slide, after this slide multiple outlets like Tom's Hardware started treating it as a fact rather than just a rumour. Once the tech press does that, it becomes a fact to the general public as well.

 

[uzzi38]

If someone takes that slide to mean Meteor Lake is on N3, then you must also take it to mean that Meteor Lake is on 20A. That would be an utterly ridiculous conclusion, since it would imply that Meteor Lake skips both Intel 4 and Intel 3. Therefore, it is obvious that the slide is not intended to imply Meteor Lake is on N3. Instead, it should be interpreted by the bold titles at the top of each column. Such as: these are examples of chips and processes that will be used with "Disaggregated" tiles.

That is the most sensible interpretation, yes. But you're expecting people to realise that.

There were rumours that MTL would use N3 before this slide, then they saw the slide and it became fact to most people, including the tech press. What I'm really wondering though, is wtf is up with the slide showing 192EUs for Meteor Lake?

 

[uzzi38]

Wait a second, Lunar Lake also confirmed to be <= 15W? Double nice - that's another bogus rumour squashed!

 

[Exist50]

It was just a rumour before this slide, after this slide multiple outlets like Tom's Hardware started treating it as a fact rather than just a rumour. Once the tech press does that, it becomes a fact to the general public as well.

I suppose it did make things worse, but plenty of outlets have been playing fast and loose with the difference between rumor and fact.

 

[Exist50]

What I'm really wondering though, is wtf is up with the slide showing 192EUs for Meteor Lake?

See, that made everything so much worse. When Intel marketing is too incompetent to get basic product details right, what hope is there for the general public? Likewise for 5W TDP.

 

[Exist50]

Wait a second, Lunar Lake also confirmed to be <= 15W? Double nice - that's another bogus rumour squashed!

I don't think Intel's confirmed that yet. The outlets just seem to be thinking "Ultra Low Power" == "U series and below" == ≤15W. Not unreasonable, but also not confirmed.

 

[uzzi38]

I don't think Intel's confirmed that yet. The outlets just seem to be thinking "Ultra Low Power" == "U series and below" == ≤15W. Not unreasonable, but also not confirmed.

It's in the Tom's Hardware article right at the end

"Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake chips will scale to meet the needs of the mobile and desktop PC market, whereas Lunar Lake will serve the mobile 15W and under market." I'm assuming this has been confirmed, because it's the first time I've seen an outlet actually make the claim that it was <=15W

 

[Exist50]

I'm assuming this has been confirmed, because it's the first time I've seen an outlet actually make the claim that it was <=15W

That's precisely how we get into this mess

 

[uzzi38]

That's precisely how we get into this mess

Touche lmfao

 

[Saylick]

That is the most sensible interpretation, yes. But you're expecting people to realise that.

There were rumours that MTL would use N3 before this slide, then they saw the slide and it became fact to most people, including the tech press. What I'm really wondering though, is wtf is up with the slide showing 192EUs for Meteor Lake?

Maybe it still exists. Seems like there are two tGPUs, one for the 2+8 version of MTL and the other for the 6+8 version. Perhaps 96 EUs for the former, and 192 EUs for the latter?

Looks like the first image is the 6+8 version with the larger tGPU, and the second is the 2+8 version with the smaller tGPU? The CPU tile and GPU tiles are not the same sizes these images (assuming SOC tile is the same size in both).

 

[mikk]

Raichu was right:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1561752492052197378

 

[dullard]

It's in the Tom's Hardware article right at the end

"Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake chips will scale to meet the needs of the mobile and desktop PC market, whereas Lunar Lake will serve the mobile 15W and under market." I'm assuming this has been confirmed, because it's the first time I've seen an outlet actually make the claim that it was <=15W

That is where I got it from. I should have included a link.

 

[scineram]

Why is there an IOE and why separate from soc? On the same process node even. This makes no sense to me.

 

[Tigerick]

Why is there an IOE and why separate from soc? On the same process node even. This makes no sense to me.

I think IOE is Thunderbolt controller which is optional for desktop MTL platform. Thus Intel is able to use the space to manufacture 8+16 compute tile

 

[Tuna-Fish]

Why is there an IOE and why separate from soc? On the same process node even. This makes no sense to me.

My guess would be that they needed more die edge for all their IO, and making the PCH larger or less square would have increased the size of the interposer too much.

 

[Exist50]

Maybe it still exists. Seems like there are two tGPUs, one for the 2+8 version of MTL and the other for the 6+8 version. Perhaps 96 EUs for the former, and 192 EUs for the latter?

There are two GPU tiles, but those EU numbers don't match.

 

[Exist50]

I think IOE is Thunderbolt controller which is optional for desktop MTL platform. Thus Intel is able to use the space to manufacture 8+16 compute tile

The desktop will still have an IOE tile. To add more cores, they just make the compute tile longer.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Have we seen any indication yet that Intel is preparing an 8+16 Meteor Lake CPU tile?