Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15

LNL-MX.png

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



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soresu

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Specifically why Raptor Refresh will exist and how MTL/ARL compatibility will spur more MTL design wins that it would purely based on out of the box performance
Past events have shown us that no matter competitive AMD HW is at any given time that Intel has zero problems getting design wins one way or another.

What they can't get through HW merit they get through contra revenue strategies, because they have the extreme financial grunt to do so, while AMD has never really been in the position to play that card, and likely never will at this point unless Intel somehow makes a truly catastrophic misstep.
 

soresu

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Intel doesn't do that anymore
You are only fooling yourself if you believe that.

They've been doing it from day one in the Chromebook market.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that so few ARM based Chromebooks exist by comparison?

The reason is very simple - Intel priced most of the ARM vendors out of the market.

They might not be pricing as aggressively in periods where no ARM vendors are making an effort, but you can bet that they are doing it the moment Qualcomm or Mediatek start making announcements to that effect.

This is especially obvious given the fact that Chrome OS supports Android apps which overwhelmingly work better on ARM CPUs due to ARM's near total dominance of the Android device market.
 

jpiniero

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You are only fooling yourself if you believe that.

They've been doing it from day one in the Chromebook market.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that so few ARM based Chromebooks exist by comparison?

It's tough to compete with a fully depreciated fab in a market where performance doesn't matter. Esp with products fabbed at TSMC, given the high prices.

Even 10 nm, with nobody wanting Sapphire Rapids, there should be plenty of fab time to pump out cheap Jasper Lake and still be profitable.
 
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soresu

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It's tough to compete with a fully depreciated fab in a market where performance doesn't matter. Esp with products fabbed at TSMC, given the high prices.
That too, but it's only part of the problem.

You can't effectively compete with a player willing to sacrifice most of the profits to keep competitors out of the game completely - not unless you have deep pockets of your own, or an entrenched starting position as the ARM vendors had with the Android segments.
 

soresu

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Tiger Lake? Not sure I understand what you're saying here...
I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume they are referring to Intel's big Little/P+E implementation using Cove/Mont cores.

Arguably Intel owned themselves as much as anyone else by disabling the AVX512 feature with ADL that they had spent years touting despite it's throttling issues - thus removing a performance feature that many software devs had specifically coded for even in the consumer market.

One step forward, 2 steps back 😅
 

coercitiv

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Jan 24, 2014
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume they are referring to Intel's big Little/P+E implementation using Cove/Mont cores.
No, he's referring to TGL. There's still an abundance of cheap TGL machines on the market. That's not that big of impediment for AMD though, as their product mix still contains many Lucienne, Cezanne and Barcelo products, some of which are directly priced against TGL laptops. The situation is similar to desktop, where AM4 is still around.

On top of that, ADL can also come pretty cheap in some machines, suggesting Intel is indeed attempting to fill the channel with discounted silicon.
 
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eek2121

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No, he's referring to TGL. There's still an abundance of cheap TGL machines on the market. That's not that big of impediment for AMD though, as their product mix still contains many Lucienne, Cezanne and Barcelo products, some of which are directly priced against TGL laptops. The situation is similar to desktop, where AM4 is still around.

On top of that, ADL can also come pretty cheap in some machines, suggesting Intel is indeed attempting to fill the channel with discounted silicon.

Hey, Tiger Lake isn’t a bad chip. If they had been able to push that out on desktop instead of Rocket Lake, AMD would have had a harder time winning marketshare.
 
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coercitiv

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I was just implying that flooding the market with cheap tiger lake chips isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
For consumers it's nice. For Intel folk... debatable.
Very unfortunate news, but massive layoffs at Intel coming! Intel's Datacenter and Client computing groups are receiving ~10% budget cuts It's up to divisions to figure out how to cut Given fixed costs, means as much as 20% layoffs in groups LTD (process node) unaffected
 

Geddagod

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For consumers it's nice. For Intel folk... debatable.

Well, more evidence of the 'unlimited budget' given to the fab side.
I mean everyone (especially the people working there) should hope this rumor is false, but if it is...
I do hope they don't cut out engineers and instead more of the bloated management I hear often when people talk about Intel.
I also hope the cuts come more out of the client side, considering that client, tbh, has been doing much better than what server has been able to do. Seems like it would hurt less if the cuts come out of client.
However this seems like especially poor timing as well when you consider Intel has diverged into big and little cores, sounds like a lot more work supporting two archs in many skus. However the move to chiplets in client, where you can have a lot of design reuse, could also reduce total engineering hours needed for a new product.
 

DrMrLordX

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For consumers it's nice. For Intel folk... debatable.

Ouch. And after Gelsinger went to so much trouble to bring people in with him, including some old hands. Interesting that the fab research teams are unaffected.

Thanks for clarifying the TigerLake comment. I had dismissed it mentally as non-sequitur or a typo since TigerLake is no match for Cezanne except in price. Much less Phoenix. But if Intel is clogging retail space with discounted TigerLake then that may make it difficult for anyone else to gain markershare in mobile.
 

tamz_msc

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Ouch. And after Gelsinger went to so much trouble to bring people in with him, including some old hands. Interesting that the fab research teams are unaffected.

Thanks for clarifying the TigerLake comment. I had dismissed it mentally as non-sequitur or a typo since TigerLake is no match for Cezanne except in price. Much less Phoenix. But if Intel is clogging retail space with discounted TigerLake then that may make it difficult for anyone else to gain markershare in mobile.
Tiger Lake H was better than Cezanne H in gaming laptops, you know, for gaming. And Cezanne U was nonexistent until Barcelo refresh came along. That's why Tiger Lake flooded the market.
 
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IEC

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I have a laptop (really, a DTR) with a Tiger Lake 11800H + RTX 3060. I bought it due to it being more powerful than the AMD equivalents at the time. Battery life blows, though. And performance when on battery also takes a steep hit versus the competitor... factors which did not matter to me due to it rarely being used on battery.
 

coercitiv

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And Cezanne U was nonexistent until Barcelo refresh came along.
And yet the Cezanne U laptop I bought last summer is, all things considered, the best and cheapest laptop I have ever owned. All other units were Intel based. In the past I used to spend $1000+ for similar build quality, now I spent less than $500 (both expressed as equivalent US prices). I was really close in buying a TGL U laptop though, but Asus managed to screw up their product using unnecessary design gimmicks. A pity, they should know better. Prices between the units were comparable.
 

jpiniero

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Tiger Lake H was better than Cezanne H in gaming laptops, you know, for gaming. And Cezanne U was nonexistent until Barcelo refresh came along. That's why Tiger Lake flooded the market.

To be clear, I am talking about the 4 core die. The 8 core die is already in the EOL process.

As it pertains to the current thread, Meteor Lake could see the same fate. It's kind of the Catch-22 with going with TSMC.
 

tamz_msc

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And yet the Cezanne U laptop I bought last summer is, all things considered, the best and cheapest laptop I have ever owned. All other units were Intel based. In the past I used to spend $1000+ for similar build quality, now I spent less than $500 (both expressed as equivalent US prices). I was really close in buying a TGL U laptop though, but Asus managed to screw up their product using unnecessary design gimmicks. A pity, they should know better. Prices between the units were comparable.
I don't think your purchase history is of any significance in trying to explain the glut of TGL products being available in the market.
 
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coercitiv

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I don't think your purchase history is of any significance in trying to explain the glut of TGL products being available in the market.
Neither was your observation about the low availability of Cezanne U prior to Barcelo, zero significance relative to the glut of TGL products in the market.
 

tamz_msc

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Neither was your observation about the low availability of Cezanne U prior to Barcelo, zero significance relative to the glut of TGL products in the market.
Of course it was. Low availability = more competition to get availability = offering alternatives by OEMs who fail to secure availability.

Case in point: HP and Dell didn't have a single Cezanne-U product in my country, they all shipped Barcelo. Asus and Lenovo did.
 

Exist50

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MLID becoming more realistic with the claimed IPC improvements in Meteor Lake? Now he says MTL gains "up to" 10% over RPL-R with some tests in the mid single digits range. It's more realistic right?
More realistic still doesn't make it remotely on target. And to state the obvious, he's been BSing the whole time, and continues to do so.
As for Arrow Lake he says that both mobile and desktop will launch in Q4 2024. Mobile uses 20A whereas desktop uses TSMC N3+N3E.
Did he say N3 or N3B? Just want to clarify because those aren't exactly the same. Either way, the claim is nonsense. Intel's in no position to support two nodes like that.
I believe we will see bigger gains. The lead architect last year told "in the coming years you will see Raptor Lake and Meteor Lake and then you will see bigger and bigger jumps"
Trust their word about as much as marketing, as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Exist50

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I mean everyone (especially the people working there) should hope this rumor is false, but if it is...
I do hope they don't cut out engineers and instead more of the bloated management I hear often when people talk about Intel.
I can't confirm anything for the client side, at least not yet, nor how it translates into layoffs percentages, but DCAI did indeed get a ~10% budget cut, on top of the previous budget cuts/layoffs. Heard they have already started with a few hundred (engineer) layoffs in AXG as of a few weeks ago. Not sure if those even count towards this new budget (even worse if they don't), but that number will have to grow well into the thousands to match that budget.

I did hear the client side had "extreme" (exact wording) roadmap cuts, but not sure about the specifics. No doubt they will be laying off hundreds to thousands as well.
 

Geddagod

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I can't confirm anything for the client side, at least not yet, nor how it translates into layoffs percentages, but DCAI did indeed get a ~10% budget cut, on top of the previous budget cuts/layoffs. Heard they have already started with a few hundred (engineer) layoffs in AXG as of a few weeks ago. Not sure if those even count towards this new budget (even worse if they don't), but that number will have to grow well into the thousands to match that budget.

I did hear the client side had "extreme" (exact wording) roadmap cuts, but not sure about the specifics. No doubt they will be laying off hundreds to thousands as well.
Disappointing. Hopefully it's cuts on how many different types of dies they make, rather than the specifics of the actual products themselves.
I mean, if stuff like ADM gets cut from ARL, or they cut core counts on future products (cough 8+32 ARL leak cough) it would be terrible imo
 

mikk

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More realistic still doesn't make it remotely on target. And to state the obvious, he's been BSing the whole time, and continues to do so.

Did he say N3 or N3B? Just want to clarify because those aren't exactly the same. Either way, the claim is nonsense. Intel's in no position to support two nodes like that.

Trust their word about as much as marketing, as far as I'm concerned.


He did say N3....he never mentioned N3B. You don't expect a bigger gain with Arrow Lake? You think it will come with another low IPC increase over Meteor Lake?