Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15

LNL-MX.png

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



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Exist50

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even if Pat "Guns A'blazing Gunslinger Gelsinger" brought back everyone including juniors and the green and seasoned process techs they'd still be screwed six ways from sunday with amd on their back in dc and now mobile where most of their profits are
With today's products, sure, but I'm speaking more about the state of things still unreleased. They seem to be getting themselves together a bit in server, but client is still disorganized.
 
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Hulk

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Back in the tick/tock days Intel would advance generations simply using a die shrink with minimal core changes. Sandy to Ivy Bridge and Haswell to Broadwell come to mind. I have a feeling we're looking at something similar happening here with Raptor Lake to Meteor Lake. MTL and Raptor Refresh will somehow coexist on the desktop as 14th gen perhaps? We have seen mixed cores for generations split between mobile and desktop but never mixed cores on the desktop in the same generation AFAIK. I mean mixed Big cores and not counting the rebranded Alders in Raptor 13th gen.
 

A///

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With today's products, sure, but I'm speaking more about the state of things still unreleased. They seem to be getting themselves together a bit in server, but client is still disorganized.
yes I'm one of the few impressed by the 3495x which most seem to be dumping on. if the power use was under further control it would be a great processor and still is in its current form for anyone who needs more power than last gen tr and epyc doesn't make sense for their use case. amd's biggest weakness for their ws would be the artificial separation of regular tr and tr pro the latter of which always seemed to be locked behind an oem which only hurts them as those who need its specs will go to intel. performance may only be 90% there with higher power use but hitting the latter in their likely work loads will not be a common issue. the expansion offered on W790 is impressive. z790 expansion isn't so good, but also dubious on x670 due to lacking componentry that doesn't exist at the moe but even id it does it doesn't offer a noticeable increase over mature last gen products
 

A///

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Back in the tick/tock days Intel would advance generations simply using a die shrink with minimal core changes. Sandy to Ivy Bridge and Haswell to Broadwell come to mind. I have a feeling we're looking at something similar happening here with Raptor Lake to Meteor Lake. MTL and Raptor Refresh will somehow coexist on the desktop as 14th gen perhaps? We have seen mixed cores for generations split between mobile and desktop but never mixed cores on the desktop in the same generation AFAIK. I mean mixed Big cores and not counting the rebranded Alders in Raptor 13th gen.
that does seem to be what Pat "Guns A'Blazin Gunslinger" Gelsinger was hinting at a year ago or longer. the -2 p cores seem to have rattled many ofc.
 

Exist50

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Aug 18, 2016
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what is this? Is it like glassdoor? what's the process of verifying some of those eye watering claims?
levels.fyi is kinda the go-to for salary comparisons in the tech industry these days. Not sure how exactly they verify individual submissions, but their averages seem to track well with anecdotal experience across a number of employers, so I think you can trust what you see.
 

Exist50

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did royal core get shelved or is there something being done for it?
Oh, and as far as I can tell, Royal is still very much alive and well. But when we'll actually see products with it is anyone's guess at this point. I think the latest rumors pointed to Nova Lake, was it? But tbh the rumor mill still doesn't seem to know what Royal even is, so I wouldn't put any real weight on that.
 

A///

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Feb 24, 2017
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Oh, and as far as I can tell, Royal is still very much alive and well. But when we'll actually see products with it is anyone's guess at this point. I think the latest rumors pointed to Nova Lake, was it? But tbh the rumor mill still doesn't seem to know what Royal even is, so I wouldn't put any real weight on that.
it's been way too long for me to remember. I remember asking, it being discussed and the conversation moving rapidly towards meteor. Meteor, arrow, lunar for mobile, panther on desktop. I looked up nova lake a couple weeks back but mentions of it ceased to exist after early january 2022, it's taken a firm backseat in everyone's minds especially due to it not being confirmed or any info about it since then. the closest we'll get to it being confirmed is if diagnostics tools update their codebases with prelim data, but those are often done only 4-6 months before a product release. Only post loading of prelim data do leaks begin to appear which are closer to the final product than es leaks far further out which are un optomized and generally say nothing to end users other than it exists and is being tested. bless careless third party companies that do their tests and forget to disconnect.
 

AMDK11

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Jul 15, 2019
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With the refreshed RaptorLake and MeteorLake so close, why is there no official word from Intel now?

We constantly rely solely on the speculation and rumors of alleged Intel employees/former employees. How much truth and current state of affairs are there in these leaks/rumours?

I wonder if there are any details about RedwoodCove or just rumors from rumors? Micro-architectural data and what has been rebuilt and extended. Any numbers. do we have anything?

It is 100% certain, judging by the structure from the Meteorlake photos, that RedwoodCove is not the same as RaptorCove. Some changes have taken place and it is difficult to judge from the photos of the structure alone whether these changes are very minor or maybe larger than is commonly speculated.

Can't the RaptorLake refresh be just a nod to the LGA1700? After all, this is the last platform to support DDR4. The new MeteorLake and ArrowLake platform is already on LGA1851 which only supports DDR5.

At this point, against the advice of others, I dare assume that the RaptorLake-S refresh is not instead of MeteorLake-S. Unless Intel officially announces it.
 

Geddagod

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Dec 28, 2021
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With the refreshed RaptorLake and MeteorLake so close, why is there no official word from Intel now?

We constantly rely solely on the speculation and rumors of alleged Intel employees/former employees. How much truth and current state of affairs are there in these leaks/rumours?

I wonder if there are any details about RedwoodCove or just rumors from rumors? Micro-architectural data and what has been rebuilt and extended. Any numbers. do we have anything?

It is 100% certain, judging by the structure from the Meteorlake photos, that RedwoodCove is not the same as RaptorCove. Some changes have taken place and it is difficult to judge from the photos of the structure alone whether these changes are very minor or maybe larger than is commonly speculated.

Can't the RaptorLake refresh be just a nod to the LGA1700? After all, this is the last platform to support DDR4. The new MeteorLake and ArrowLake platform is already on LGA1851 which only supports DDR5.

At this point, against the advice of others, I dare assume that the RaptorLake-S refresh is not instead of MeteorLake-S. Unless Intel officially announces it.
Suggested increased L1 cache from the die shot of RWC. L1 cache changes can have a major impact on performance. I think it's going to be another Palm Cove moment, which also saw L1 cache changes on a new node.
Also Intel has an event lined up for the 27th? Some Q1 event or investor meeting, I don't remember. Maybe they announced RPL-R there.
 

AMDK11

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Jul 15, 2019
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Yes. From the Meteorlake drop, it was speculated that L1I RedwoodCove is also 48KB like L1D.

Edit:
PalmCove is generally a slightly improved Skylake in 10nm. Support for AVX512 was added, but it was a big compromise and was mostly based on 2x256 bits very similar to Skylake. SunnyCove is just introducing strong FPU expansion. In addition, L/S capabilities, scheduling and minor nuances in the predictor have been slightly enhanced. The changes probably gave a negligible increase in IPC and only upgrading to AVX512 gave any noticeable.

If Meteorlake was going to be after AlderLake, it should be LGA1700 compliant.

I think we should know the truth soon.
 
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SiliconFly

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Mar 10, 2023
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With the refreshed RaptorLake and MeteorLake so close, why is there no official word from Intel now?

We constantly rely solely on the speculation and rumors of alleged Intel employees/former employees. How much truth and current state of affairs are there in these leaks/rumours?

I wonder if there are any details about RedwoodCove or just rumors from rumors? Micro-architectural data and what has been rebuilt and extended. Any numbers. do we have anything?

It is 100% certain, judging by the structure from the Meteorlake photos, that RedwoodCove is not the same as RaptorCove. Some changes have taken place and it is difficult to judge from the photos of the structure alone whether these changes are very minor or maybe larger than is commonly speculated.

Can't the RaptorLake refresh be just a nod to the LGA1700? After all, this is the last platform to support DDR4. The new MeteorLake and ArrowLake platform is already on LGA1851 which only supports DDR5.

At this point, against the advice of others, I dare assume that the RaptorLake-S refresh is not instead of MeteorLake-S. Unless Intel officially announces it.
It's kinda strange. Long back Intel used to release powerpoints in advance about the products they're working on. Even before it samples. Now they're trying to behave like Apple... everything is shrouded in secrecy! Don't know why the sudden change! Maybe it gives them some advantage. Not sure.

But one thing we can be sure of is, Redwood Cove is not a refresh of Raptor Cove. Judging by the sheer amount of changes from monolithic to dis-aggregated, including tiles, faveros, L4, etc., I'm sure everything has been retooled completely, including the core architectures (both P & E cores).

Also, clock regression shouldn't be that big an issue for MTL as Intel 4 has been around for a while. They even released a specialty processor last year built on Intel 4. And they'ye had enough time to workout the initial performance issues on Intel 4. So, MTL should be able to hit decent clocks compared to previuos gen. But it looks like they're keeping the core count low due to either yield, or power or heat issues. Still no info on that either.
 

BorisTheBlade82

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May 1, 2020
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SunnyCove is just introducing strong FPU expansion. In addition, L/S capabilities, scheduling and minor nuances in the predictor have been slightly enhanced. The changes probably gave a negligible increase in IPC and only upgrading to AVX512 gave any noticeable.
SNC was very wide compared to SKL, which could be seen by a hefty ROB size increase from 224 to 352, see link below. The IPC gain was also significant with 15-20% IIRC.
The trouble was, that they couldn't get it to clock nearly as high as SKL. This could only be mostly fixed with Tiger Lake and finally Alder Lake.
But the Sunny Cove DNA is still there, even in Raptor Cove. That is a significant reason for their high power draw at most ISO performance levels compared even to Zen3.

 

AMDK11

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SNC was very wide compared to SKL, which could be seen by a hefty ROB size increase from 224 to 352, see link below. The IPC gain was also significant with 15-20% IIRC.
The trouble was, that they couldn't get it to clock nearly as high as SKL. This could only be mostly fixed with Tiger Lake and finally Alder Lake.
But the Sunny Cove DNA is still there, even in Raptor Cove. That is a significant reason for their high power draw at most ISO performance levels compared even to Zen3.

About SunnyCove I wrote only a mention of a large expansion of the FPU in relation to PalmCove / Skylake. The rest of my post was just about PalmCove in relation to Skylake.
 

BorisTheBlade82

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@SiliconFly
Might it be, that Intel simply is not as convinced of MTL as to tease and showboat it? And by the way, they already did a big technical deep dive for it last year.
Wasn't it that most sources only talk about minor design changes for the cores in order to not further increase complexity and risk for their product? I mean, tile architecture, new process, foundry partnership on the same SKU already is s lot of potential trouble.
Also, what kind of experience with Intel4. To my knowledge, their was no product even remotely comparable to MTL before on that process. Or do you mean experience by doing revisions? If so, is there a number in the public about how many revisions MTL already had?
 

BorisTheBlade82

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About SunnyCove I wrote only a mention of a large expansion of the FPU in relation to PalmCove / Skylake. The rest of my post was just about PalmCove in relation to Skylake.
So not the whole paragraph I quoted was about Sunny Cove? If so, you might consider to restructure that a bit IMHO.
 

AMDK11

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Yes. The post was mainly about changes made to PalmCove vs. skylake. I mentioned SunnyCove has introduced a very large FPU extension (mainly with AVX512 in mind) because in PalmCove, despite the addition of AVX512, the FPU is still very similar to that of Skylake.

Unfortunately, I can no longer edit the post.

Edit:
Of course I know about SunnyCove and I agree it's a very big upgrade for Skylake although not as big as GoldenCove with its 6 x86 decode pipelines, 512 ROB, 5 ALU pipelines, 3x256 bit FPU among others.
 
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mikk

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Meteor Lake-S (as expected) up to i5, Arrow Lake-S up to i9. Same chipset.

 
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A///

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intel will stick to 8+6 to establish the new platform and work out any bugs on the consume rmainstream lineup. meteor lake will be the village bicycle.
 

dullard

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mikk

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First time they mentioned Arrow Lake. Last time there was only Lunar Lake, now it's both in 2024. Obviously they don't tell which variant of Arrow Lake.

arl_2jc4f.png

 

A///

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front page had an article today about meteor and intel 4 ramping up production. might have been tied to the quarterly idk, I read the headline and then ran off to get lunch. intel 3 ramping in 8 months to 1 year and 4-6 months from now would be a good indication of how smooth things are outside the embarrassing quarter reports.