Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15

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Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



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Geddagod

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hmm? I'm certain lunar comes after arrow and for mobile only as you pont out. after arrow is panther lake wich is for both desktop and mobile if not mistaken.
I think there's a decent chance LNL and ARL mobile release at the same time. Extremely late 2024 or early 2025.
Plus since they are apparently going to use the same architecture, it makes sense to class them into the same generation.
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A///

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No, the idea that Intel can't get AVX-512 working on E-cores so they switch over to multiple compute tiles. I don't think it makes any sense.
?????????????????

reread what I said. Intel disabled avx512 initially then began fusing them off during production because the e cores wouldn't work with it. What I said is that intel may in the future drop the e cores and go to p cores or normal cores and going tile based their yields will improve while riskfactor will reduce. Make sense now?
 

Geddagod

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?????????????????

reread what I said. Intel disabled avx512 initially then began fusing them off during production because the e cores wouldn't work with it. What I said is that intel may in the future drop the e cores and go to p cores or normal cores and going tile based their yields will improve while riskfactor will reduce. Make sense now?
E-cores wouldn't work with it because they didn't support AVX-512, but future E-cores might change that if the cores themselves are able to support AVX-512.
I doubt Intel drops E-cores anytime soon before their next architectural rehaul. Why do you think they will?
Also which generation do you suspect multiple compute chiplets will appear? Doesn't look like ARL or MTL will feature them.
 

Exist50

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Nothing has changed as far as Intel’s plans. TSMC is not slated for use with Intel’s core client IP at any point in the near future. Unless you have evidence otherwise, please do your part to stop spreading this nonsense.
Current rumors heavily suggest N3 for Lunar Lake and some Arrow Lake SKUs. If nothing else, nothing Intel's said has eliminated that possibility.
hmm? I'm certain lunar comes after arrow and for mobile only as you pont out. after arrow is panther lake wich is for both desktop and mobile if not mistaken.
LNL and ARL are more likely to be contemporaries than anything else. And yes, Panther Lake is the rumored name of the gen after both.
here's nothing really inherent to the little cores that make it hard for them to implement AVX-512.
128b datapath certainly complicates things a lot.
 
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A///

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E-cores wouldn't work with it because they didn't support AVX-512, but future E-cores might change that if the cores themselves are able to support AVX-512.
I doubt Intel drops E-cores anytime soon before their next architectural rehaul. Why do you think they will?
Also which generation do you suspect multiple compute chiplets will appear? Doesn't look like ARL or MTL will feature them.
As long as both p and e cores utilise separate uarchs it won't work under the current design mindset. The cost for intel to find a solution to get it to work withstanding from now is greater than being able to pack standard cores while reducing or using the same power. E cores are largely a weight around intel's neck from software that can't properly use them to their fullest to the windows scheduler. the only other easy method is if they copy amd's future attempt. One can sing praise about intel's e cores but at the end of the day regardless of how powerful they are relative to the e cores they're still a headache.
It's going to be a while before multiple compute chiplets become common for intel. I want to say Intel has learned from their lessons and is going slowly. I don't expect Panther to be anything unique but around the time of post panther release looking towards the next gen we may see whispers of a new intel solution. This all hinges on amd continuing to deliver. as long as they make intel run a few km for their morning jelly donut the more advancements we'll see.
A very old rumor was panther lake is a radical new design but i am not buying it. not much is said about what comes after because the line gets fuzzy between it and the so called nova lake.

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Geddagod

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As long as both p and e cores utilise separate uarchs it won't work under the current design mindset. The cost for intel to find a solution to get it to work withstanding from now is greater than being able to pack standard cores while reducing or using the same power. E cores are largely a weight around intel's neck from software that can't properly use them to their fullest to the windows scheduler. the only other easy method is if they copy amd's future attempt. One can sing praise about intel's e cores but at the end of the day regardless of how powerful they are relative to the e cores they're still a headache.
It's going to be a while before multiple compute chiplets become common for intel. I want to say Intel has learned from their lessons and is going slowly. I don't expect Panther to be anything unique but around the time of post panther release looking towards the next gen we may see whispers of a new intel solution. This all hinges on amd continuing to deliver. as long as they make intel run a few km for their morning jelly donut the more advancements we'll see.
A very old rumor was panther lake is a radical new design but i am not buying it. not much is said about what comes after because the line gets fuzzy between it and the so called nova lake.

Intel
Just because they have different architectures doesn't mean they aren't compatible. As long as they have the same level of support, there should be no issues. From what I have seen, literarily everything except programs that use AVX-512 is fully compatible with the P-cores, and that's only because the E-cores don't support AVX-512 (for this generation, nothing technically really is stopping them from adding AVX-512 to future generations of E-cores).
 
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A///

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LNL and ARL are more likely to be contemporaries than anything else. And yes, Panther Lake is the rumored name of the gen after both.
Going back to something Pat "Guns A'Blazin Gunslinger" Gelsinger said a long while back was espousing good things about Meteor, but as I see it Arrow Lake will be the refined child for them.

Panther should be interesting! IDK if you saw the memo of ARM and Intel today but they hinted at that their fabs are doing well at least my take on it from a 2c view.
 

A///

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Just because they have different architectures doesn't mean they aren't compatible. As long as they have the same level of support, there should be no issues. From what I have seen, literarily everything except programs that use AVX-512 is fully compatible with the P-cores, and that's only because the E-cores don't support AVX-512 (for this generation, nothing technically really is stopping them from adding AVX-512 to future generations of E-cores).
You'll have to address the engineers @ intel with your knowledge because they couldn't get it to work and ended up disabling it then physically fusing processors. Clearly you know far more than them.
 

Geddagod

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You'll have to address the engineers @ intel with your knowledge because they couldn't get it to work and ended up disabling it then physically fusing processors. Clearly you know far more than them.
I don't know if you read the stuff in parenthesis, but I said for future generations
Idk how many times I stated that this generation of E-cores don't support AVX-512, but there's nothing stopping future generations of E-cores from adding AVX-512. It's not an inherent challenge to the design of E-cores, adding AVX-512 adds space yes, but there are design techniques that can reduce space in other places as well, or even just sharing FPU units, etc etc.
Do you really think Intel can't change the design of E-cores in the future?
 
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It's not an inherent challenge to the design of E-cores, adding AVX-512 adds space yes, but there are design techniques that can reduce space in other places as well, or even just sharing FPU units, etc etc.
Seems plausible. Knowing Intel, they may put a single AVX-512 unit in the E-core cluster so they can unlock the dormant AVX-512 units in their P-cores. Two birds with one stone. If they hadn't rushed ADL/RPL due to the AMD threat, we would have gotten that design on day one of ADL. Granite Rapids is rumored to feature AVX-1024 so maybe Arrow Lake will be the design done right without needing to disable units or wasting die space on stuff no one can use.
 

A///

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I don't know if you read the stuff in parenthesis, but I said for future generations
Idk how many times I stated that this generation of E-cores don't support AVX-512, but there's nothing stopping future generations of E-cores from adding AVX-512. It's not an inherent challenge to the design of E-cores, adding AVX-512 adds space yes, but there are design techniques that can reduce space in other places as well, or even just sharing FPU units, etc etc.
Do you really think Intel can't change the design of E-cores in the future?
It's not that I don't think they can it's that I don't see the cost vs benefit basis of it. Crestmont, which comes after Gracemont, is not expected to have AVX512 either. For Intel the time and energy spent implementing AVX512 on both p and e cores and making sure they communicate with the OS without hiccup under Linux or Windows is a large money and time glut when they can not include AVX512. If I had to pull a number out of my rear I'd say less than 2% of general consumers benefit from AVX512. My understanding is the benefit general consumers will see from AVX512 is in retro game emulation which can't be discussed at length due to it being gray area piracy.
 
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My understanding is the benefit general consumers will see from AVX512 is in retro game emulation which can't be discussed at length due to it being gray area piracy.
I hope Microsoft Excel or LibreCalc is able to spice things up with AVX-512. Suddenly, offices everywhere start ordering Zen 4 PCs. That would get Intel really worried :D
 

A///

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Seems plausible. Knowing Intel, they may put a single AVX-512 unit in the E-core cluster so they can unlock the dormant AVX-512 units in their P-cores. Two birds with one stone. If they hadn't rushed ADL/RPL due to the AMD threat, we would have gotten that design on day one of ADL. Granite Rapids is rumored to feature AVX-1024 so maybe Arrow Lake will be the design done right without needing to disable units or wasting die space on stuff no one can use.
neither Alder nor Raptor were rushed. Intel didn't feel a threat by amd, recall amd's sales had been poor for months and only am4 was selling better. intel had repeatedly tried to get avx512 working on both platforms but kept running into performance problems.to give you some insight here, alder lake was not intel's first heterogeneous cpu design. lakefield was, and lakefield also had its avx512 fused off because of limitations imposed by a hybrid architecture. kakefield was Intel's first modern foray into hybrid designs but alder was their first real swim in it with mass adoption. kakefield began production in 2019 and I can't tell you when development began, but the issue of Intel not being able to get avx512 running on a hybrid design is an old problem. From the rumors Intel's main competitor looks to use the same core in a future generation but lacking cache for their alleged hybrid design. this should allow them to omplement avx512 without too much trouble at least on paper.

what about power you say? have you seen current gen? intel's competitor smokes them off the line in lower power consumption thruout the load range.
 
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neither Alder nor Raptor were rushed.
I would believe that, except Intel launched Alder Lake with AVX-512 enabling option in BIOS. Then backtracked due to some order from a high ranking executive (no idea who). Dr. Ian reported that the engineers who had worked on AVX-512 on ADL were taken aback and pissed when they learned that AVX-512 was getting disabled post launch. It makes no sense to take AVX-512 away, just to make your puny cores work. It feels like they forced their decision down everyone's throats and took an option away from enthusiasts while also making their CPU look lacking compared to Zen 4.
 

A///

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I hope Microsoft Excel or LibreCalc is able to spice things up with AVX-512. Suddenly, offices everywhere start ordering Zen 4 PCs. That would get Intel really worried :D
I had my taxes done 2 weeks ago and I was chatting with my accountant and the discussion fell to the new excel and how it used "ai" instruction to automate large tasks and speed work flow up. Idk what generation processor his laptop has but it wasn't new. i myself saw what used to take a very long time to do manually even with software aids be finished in minutes. intel and their main competitor are planning on incorporating more ai instruction sets whatever that means and accelerators into future hardware, like z6 and beyond and maybe panther lake for intel. i couldn't tell you how much benefit slapping on a neural engine to a modern x86 processor that runs at significantly higher frequencies than non x86 competitors will give end users. it would speed up work for certain people such as creatives whose livelyhood hinges on being able to churn out more and more junk to upload onto youtube.
 
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I had my taxes done 2 weeks ago and I was chatting with my accountant and the discussion fell to the new excel and how it used "ai" instruction to automate large tasks and speed work flow up. Idk what generation processor his laptop has but it wasn't new. i myself saw what used to take a very long time to do manually even with software aids be finished in minutes.
Very interesting. What kind of calculation was that? Would you be able to share a sample sheet without any confidential data?
 
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A///

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I would believe that, except Intel launched Alder Lake with AVX-512 enabling option in BIOS. Then backtracked due to some order from a high ranking executive (no idea who). Dr. Ian reported that the engineers who had worked on AVX-512 on ADL were taken aback and pissed when they learned that AVX-512 was getting disabled post launch.
avx512 also existed on lakefield and was disabled. it's an issue intel keeps working on. it's not a decision intel took light to disable it. if Intel and microsoft couldn't figure out how to get it worked despite workingly closely together then it becomes a time sink, and any additional problems beyond their scope that irritates customers is a black mark for the brand. crestmont on mtl is not going to have it but it may be available beginning with arrow lake because arrow lake dumps crestmont for skymont which lunar lake will be using too iirc. Panther lake is too far out for us to know anything reliably about much like nova lake that comes after that's only been mentioned a few times by rumor bs'ers.
 

A///

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Very interesting. What kind of calculation was that? Would you be able to share a sample sheet without any confidential data?
no need to. excel introduced a automated tool long ago called analyze data which took data points and crunched them, but with the ai code it crunches the data faster and can take multiple data points. this is the accountant's description and he could have been lying but I spent less time in his office than prior years. my guess it uses a more modern instruction set ms took advantage of. idk if it qualifies as ai, but that's what m$ claim. M$ also recently said they plan to incorporate ai code into their software. beyond the photo prettyfying bs for windows 11 they have plans on leveraging future hardware for future windows not discussed.
now the oldy in me can only assume intel, their competitor and microsoft took a look at a fruit named company that began incorporating ai and neural engines in their products several years ago that paid off and they finally got off their asses and realised it may be benefiical to them too to stay ahead in the big game we call consumerism.

we've seen software based ai before if you know of reimaging programs by a company with the name of a jewel i forget which. hw based ai has been expensive by natural as a standalone product vs incorporated like in a phone for a long time but we're beginning to see specialised products that are affordable for people like you and me like amd xilinx's new vulveo ai based hardware video encoder that is only around 1500 usd. that is progress because previous cards of that caliper used to cost much more at least twice and did less.
 
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no need to. excel introduced a automated tool long ago called analyze data which took data points and crunched them, but with the ai code it crunches the data faster and can take multiple data points. this is the accountant's description and he could have been lying but I spent less time in his office than prior years.
Thanks!

I found this:

Excited to learn more about this feature. Hope it can help me :p
 
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A///

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Thanks!

I found this:

Excited to learn more about this feature. Hope it can help me :p
I've been doing some light research into how current hardware accelerators work including gpus in non gaming enviros like software leveraging cuda cores for photogammetry which I learned about last week on this forum thanks to a knid forum member who walked me through it all. All very interesting stuff I didn't know what possible on normal hardware.
 

Exist50

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I would believe that, except Intel launched Alder Lake with AVX-512 enabling option in BIOS. Then backtracked due to some order from a high ranking executive (no idea who).
AVX-512 was only ever going to work on the chips without E-cores (either disabled in BIOS, or physically not present). They probably decided to disable it to avoid having any feature regression going up their SKU stack.
It makes no sense to take AVX-512 away, just to make your puny cores work.
In what world is AVX-512 more beneficial for consumers than more cores/MT performance? It's funny how the second AMD adds it, it suddenly becomes the most important thing in the world, despite pretty much no one caring for Zen 3...
 
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It's funny how the second AMD adds it, it suddenly becomes the most important thing in the world, despite pretty much no one caring for Zen 3...
Progress has taken a step back because of Intel's bone headed decision. AMD added AVX-512 so developers had an incentive to explore it further for use in their software since they wouldn't have to worry about implementing a feature only for Intel users and not AMD users. But now they won't explore using this feature coz the latest Intel CPUs don't have it anymore. When's the last time some developer went out of their way to make something run better on AMD CPUs? Intel disabled the BIOS option on purpose. If they can't have it, they won't let AMD enjoy it either. They know the majority of developers think Intel first AMD second.
 
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Exist50

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Progress has taken a step back because of Intel's bone headed decision.
I don't remember you saying the same when AMD chose not to support it for years.
Intel disabled the BIOS option on purpose. If they can't have it, they won't let AMD enjoy it either.
Please do explain how Intel disabling AVX-512 on a fraction of Intel CPUs deprives AMD users of that feature? No mainstream use case was ever going to design around the ADL 6+0 die in particular.

And sooner or later, this will be solved. No way Intel's going to waste all the software effort they put into AVX-512. Either they'll bring it to E-cores, or define 256b versions of the new ops. Though I wouldn't be surprised if that takes till after Skymont.
 

A///

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AVX-512 was only ever going to work on the chips without E-cores (either disabled in BIOS, or physically not present). They probably decided to disable it to avoid having any feature regression going up their SKU stack.

The irony intel had with this is they did offer avx512 on Rocket Lake, which is best left forgotten as it was a regression on multiple fronts.

In what world is AVX-512 more beneficial for consumers than more cores/MT performance? It's funny how the second AMD adds it, it suddenly becomes the most important thing in the world, despite pretty much no one caring for Zen 3...
This is one of those rare times where you and i see eye to eye with each there. as it stands it's a very niche feature if you work in a field that uses softwae that can take advantage of that instruction set and you work from home or company was too cheap to buy higher end hardware. for average joe users the only reason it would be beneficial is what i mentioned earlier, console game emulation that sees some improvement from avx512 being present although I'm certain better future uarchs and brute power would invalidate this improvement.

i don't see major software ever utilising the power of avx512 and thus it feels like amd wasted silicon space on something that isn't going to be worth for maybe 98% of their consumers for mainstream desktop. I'd like to be proven wrong by hard statistics but I firmly believe only 2% utilise avx512 for scientific workloads discounting any hobbyist folding regime.
 

A///

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And sooner or later, this will be solved. No way Intel's going to waste all the software effort they put into AVX-512. Either they'll bring it to E-cores, or define 256b versions of the new ops. Though I wouldn't be surprised if that takes till after Skymont.
route of least resistance and budget spend imo.