Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Page 84 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
696
602
106
PPT1.jpg
PPT2.jpg
PPT3.jpg



As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15

LNL-MX.png

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



Clockspeed.png
 

Attachments

  • PantherLake.png
    PantherLake.png
    283.5 KB · Views: 24,006
  • LNL.png
    LNL.png
    881.8 KB · Views: 25,490
Last edited:

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
I myself have felt more revitalized and human after electrocuting myself a few times now over the years. Possibly more, you tend to lose count of the stupid stuff you did the older you get. some of you, mainly mclord, need to stop being worry warts.

I still have faith in Pat "Guns A-blazin gunslinger" gelsinger.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: igor_kavinski

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
I caught something this morning on google but can't find it now. Did intel get an exclusive 2 year access to a new type of asml euv machine?
 

Geddagod

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2021
1,296
1,368
106
I caught something this morning on google but can't find it now. Did intel get an exclusive 2 year access to a new type of asml euv machine?
I don't think it's exclusive, nor do I think it's for 2 years. I heard Intel is getting high NA EUV machines first, but I'm also pretty sure those machines are going to be shipped out to TSMC and Samsung not too long after.
Intel 18A uses high NA EUV , and it's being used in Clearwater Forest in 2025 (prob late). IIRC Intel 18A is also designed for using regular EUV machines too, as a safeguard against delays.
TSMC 2nm also uses high NA EUV, and that's supposed to be seeing mass production in late 2025 as well. Products 2026 I think.
Something interesting is that high NA apparently cuts max die size in half, so we may be looking a smaller chiplet approach from Intel, more reflecting AMD's current approach.
 

Geddagod

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2021
1,296
1,368
106
If you're not talking about high NA though, idk. I didn't see anything about that.
But I still doubt it's true, isn't TSMC still the far larger customer by far, even Samsung should have more EUV machines than Intel no? And stock wise, I think TSMC still owns more shares and investment in ASML than Intel does.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
I'll see if I can find it but it was what was in the results page. It might have been one of those old articles that gets indexed with 2022 in the listing but not actually 2022.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Geddagod

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,247
2,311
136
I don't think it's exclusive, nor do I think it's for 2 years. I heard Intel is getting high NA EUV machines first, but I'm also pretty sure those machines are going to be shipped out to TSMC and Samsung not too long after.
Intel 18A uses high NA EUV , and it's being used in Clearwater Forest in 2025 (prob late). IIRC Intel 18A is also designed for using regular EUV machines too, as a safeguard against delays.


I don't think they use High NA EUV on 18A.
 

Attachments

  • 18A.png
    18A.png
    428.1 KB · Views: 28

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
It might have been early access to the asml hardware not exclusivity. I can't imagine why asml would grant Intel 2 years of exclusivity in the first place and no one questioned how odd that would be including myself. I've spent hours looking at Google and browser history to make sense of what I think I saw. I'm beginning to think I misread the result page. @mikk's post is referencing an intel and asml announcement regarding high na twinscan systems to be deployed in 2025. Intel's ireland fab has gotten or is still getting euv machines that are getting deployed this year for mtl according to the press report I just read.

That's fine and dandy but to repeat @DrMrLordX's quaint cynicism, it depends on if Intel can walk the walk and not simply talk the talk. Pat "Guns A'blazin Gunslinger" Gelsinger can get up on stage and speak of God and dance all he wants but he and his team (Intel from top to bottom) need to hit their goals otherwise talk is cheap and worth nothing especially when you've got a red colored Pacman (AMD) chomping everything behind you and will soon bite you in the bum if you don't pick up slack and pump those legs, which is a metaphor for delivering on promises with a good product, not trash.
 
Jul 27, 2020
20,040
13,738
146
It might have been early access to the asml hardware not exclusivity.


Second link mentions that Intel will receive the scanner first but TSMC will also get it in 2024. Intel will have production silicon in 2025, if Pat's prayers are answered.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lightmanek

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136


Second link mentions that Intel will receive the scanner first but it will be TSMC that will have production silicon in 2024. Intel will follow in 2025, if Pat's prayers are answered.
That probably was it. I know I was looking at TSMC announcements regarding their N2 and came across that. I either said it a post ago or didn't I forget but I didn't question how absurd it read because Intel has yet to prove they can mnaufacture on their lower/newer nodes at present and why would they get first dibs on it when tsmc would benefit more. I'm not suggesting asml picks and chooses who gets machines first, but what I am saying is just because Intel was a major backer of asml doesn't mean they get what they ask for when those machines would largely go unused to their full abilities if they went to intel and not tsmc. I hope this makes sense.
 
Jul 27, 2020
20,040
13,738
146
I'm not suggesting asml picks and chooses who gets machines first, but what I am saying is just because Intel was a major backer of asml doesn't mean they get what they ask for when those machines would largely go unused to their full abilities if they went to intel and not tsmc. I hope this makes sense.
Intel is collaborating with them on the machines so I guess their input on how the machines work is valuable to ASML and of course, Intel must have shown them a little more money than TSMC. It seems TSMC will use the machines mainly for research purposes in 2024. That means they might actually be a bit behind Intel in understanding how the High NA machines work or how the machines may serve them better.
 

Geddagod

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2021
1,296
1,368
106
I don't think they use High NA EUV on 18A.
In this Anandtech article it claims they are
Not listed on the diagram above, but Intel is expecting to have an 18A process in 2025. 18A will be using ASML’s latest EUV machines, known as High-NA machines, which are capable of more accurate photolithography.
And after some digging....
you don't even have to believe Ian, here's a quote from the head of Intel's node development, Ann Kelleher herself
Correct. We're aiming to introduce it (High NA) in more in 2025, and we're setting up our processes so that if for some reason High-NA is not ready, then we will be able to continue without it. As soon as High-NA is ready, then we'll be able to put it into our product and use it.
Essentially high NA EUV is going to intercept what ever node they can use it in. I'm assuming they have preparations for Intel 18A with and without High-NA, and probably the same for 16A. Intel 18A got pushed up to 2H 2024 for HVM ready, but we won't really be seeing products on Intel 18A until 2025.
 
  • Like
Reactions: techinvestor1

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
Intel is collaborating with them on the machines so I guess their input on how the machines work is valuable to ASML and of course, Intel must have shown them a little more money than TSMC. It seems TSMC will use the machines mainly for research purposes in 2024. That means they might actually be a bit behind Intel in understanding how the High NA machines work or how the machines may serve them better.
never mind.

I read it wrong. TSMC will get it to begin incorporation, Intel won't be getting them online until 2025 but taking delivery first.These would be for arrow lake if not lunar/panther/craplake.
 
Jul 27, 2020
20,040
13,738
146

That last comment there. High NA needs the die size to be small to be effective? That rules Intel out, doesn't it? That's the one trouble they haven't been able to sort out. Their die sizes are too large.

And this interview spells doom for future innovation in this space: https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/hyper-na-after-high-na-asml-cto-van-den-brink-isnt-convinced/
 

Saylick

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2012
3,532
7,858
136

That last comment there. High NA needs the die size to be small to be effective? That rules Intel out, doesn't it? That's the one trouble they haven't been able to sort out. Their die sizes are too large.

And this interview spells doom for future innovation in this space: https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/hyper-na-after-high-na-asml-cto-van-den-brink-isnt-convinced/
It's not that High NA needs a small die size to be effective, it's more that High NA EUV requires an anamorphic mirror which limits the size of the reticle to half of what "normal" NA EUV can use. Asianometry explains this far better than I could ever do myself:
 

Doug S

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2020
2,784
4,747
136

That last comment there. High NA needs the die size to be small to be effective? That rules Intel out, doesn't it? That's the one trouble they haven't been able to sort out. Their die sizes are too large.

And this interview spells doom for future innovation in this space: https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/hyper-na-after-high-na-asml-cto-van-den-brink-isnt-convinced/


As Saylick explains it is just halving the reticle size. Instead of 26x33 it is 13x33 IIRC which while still 400+ mm^2 is pretty rectangular so the effective max for some designs is probably closer to 300 mm^2.

Everyone has known this is coming for years, and is one of the several reasons driving everyone to chiplet based designs.
 

Saylick

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2012
3,532
7,858
136
As Saylick explains it is just halving the reticle size. Instead of 26x33 it is 13x33 IIRC which while still 400+ mm^2 is pretty rectangular so the effective max for some designs is probably closer to 300 mm^2.

Everyone has known this is coming for years, and is one of the several reasons driving everyone to chiplet based designs.
26mm x 16.5mm, but yeah. Quite rectangular but not limiting for midsized dies. If your name is Nvidia, however, you're going to need to pivot within 3 years.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
26mm x 16.5mm, but yeah. Quite rectangular but not limiting for midsized dies. If your name is Nvidia, however, you're going to need to pivot within 3 years.
That falls in line with blackwell still being a monolothic die. Do you think nvidia would sooner move to chiplets on consumer or their pro hardware?
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,247
2,311
136
In this Anandtech article it claims they are

And after some digging....
you don't even have to believe Ian, here's a quote from the head of Intel's node development, Ann Kelleher herself

Essentially high NA EUV is going to intercept what ever node they can use it in. I'm assuming they have preparations for Intel 18A with and without High-NA, and probably the same for 16A. Intel 18A got pushed up to 2H 2024 for HVM ready, but we won't really be seeing products on Intel 18A until 2025.


This is outdated from 2021, better check out here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/17415/asmls-highna-update-coming-to-fabs-in-2024-2025

Anandtech is not so sure anymore:
But recently Intel pulled-in the start of18A production to the second half of 2024 and indicated that it could use ASML's Twinscan NXE:3600D or NXE:3800E for its 18A manufacturing, presumably via multi-patterning.

And actually they don't believe in it anymore which you can see in their selfmade roadmap: https://images.anandtech.com/doci/17344/IntelRoadmap_H1_2022b.png

In the latest big roadmap update from Intel there is nothing about 18A+High-NA, it's the opposite. They pretty much confirmed nodes up to 18A are using regular 0.33 NA EUV, you can find the original source here: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/w.../2022-intel-investor-meeting-process-tech.pdf

Your quote from 2021 is old and there was no confirmation for 18A either. She didn't say it will be introduced in a shipping mass volume node or 18A, it could mean anything. Anandtech and others back in 2021 simply assumed 18A will be using High-NA because of the timeline.
 
  • Like
Reactions: moinmoin and A///

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
Thanks mikk. I had looked at Gedda's post and knew I'd seen something newer than that because it didn't align with what I remember which isn' saying much with my memory. What would be the first product to use intel's new ribbon based gaafet and power delivery system? DrMrLord mentioned it a few weeks back but good luck trying to find a post. Would be it be Arrowlake assuming a 1h release or 2h if lunar mobile lake is 1h?
 

Geddagod

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2021
1,296
1,368
106
This is outdated from 2021, better check out here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/17415/asmls-highna-update-coming-to-fabs-in-2024-2025

Anandtech is not so sure anymore:


And actually they don't believe in it anymore which you can see in their selfmade roadmap: https://images.anandtech.com/doci/17344/IntelRoadmap_H1_2022b.png

In the latest big roadmap update from Intel there is nothing about 18A+High-NA, it's the opposite. They pretty much confirmed nodes up to 18A are using regular 0.33 NA EUV, you can find the original source here: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/w.../2022-intel-investor-meeting-process-tech.pdf

Your quote from 2021 is old and there was no confirmation for 18A either. She didn't say it will be introduced in a shipping mass volume node or 18A, it could mean anything. Anandtech and others back in 2021 simply assumed 18A will be using High-NA because of the timeline.
The article you are quoting from agrees that Intel 18A would use High NA if it comes out in time.
The quote you chose from the article doesn't show the full picture- here's some more context
So far, the only process technology confirmed to use ASML's High-NA tools is Intel's 18A node and that one was once scheduled to enter high-volume production in 2025, around the time when ASML starts to deliver its production High-NA EUV systems. But recently Intel pulled-in the start of18A production to the second half of 2024 and indicated that it could use ASML's Twinscan NXE:3600D or NXE:3800E for its 18A manufacturing, presumably via multi-patterning.
While Intel's 18A technology would greatly benefit from High-NA EUV tools, it looks like Intel does not necessarily need Twinscan EXE:5200 machines for this node. Usage of multi-patterning for commercial chips means a longer product cycle, lower productivity, higher risks, and potentially lower yields (though the latter is not cast in stone). Yet, it looks like Intel wants its 18A node to arrive as soon as possible, perhaps because it considers it a major tool that will allow it to recapture process technology leadership from TSMC. Consequently, Intel's updated plans are now to phase in High-NA tooling during 18A's lifecycle if the tools are completed on time.
So ye, Intel 18A has high NA and non-high NA versions, and would prob phase in Intel 18A high NA later in the development cycle.
What Ann's quote repeats this sentiment- high NA is not set in stone and could be used with Intel 18A, Intel 16A, etc etc. It all depends on when they get their tools, and they would want to phase it in as soon as possible for at the very least economic reasons, if not for the technical reasons of using the machine to learn about the process and use it in future nodes.
Intel 18A might not use high NA initially, but I would not be surprised if they phase it in eventually. Remember Intel claims, using the same slide, high NA is going to be HVM in 2025. So unless you think Intel 16 or Intel 17 is going to be HVM in 2025 (when clearwater forest is on Intel 18A most likely late 2025 and on client side Intel 18A ARL should just be released early 2025) I don't see any conflicts between what is being said officially by Intel and what is being speculated here.
 

Geddagod

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2021
1,296
1,368
106
Thanks mikk. I had looked at Gedda's post and knew I'd seen something newer than that because it didn't align with what I remember which isn' saying much with my memory. What would be the first product to use intel's new ribbon based gaafet and power delivery system? DrMrLord mentioned it a few weeks back but good luck trying to find a post. Would be it be Arrowlake assuming a 1h release or 2h if lunar mobile lake is 1h?
Internal Intel 3 node for backside power delivery, officially Intel 20A for both, prob going to in ARL. It seems to be pretty much impossible for Intel 20A to be out 2024, unless its at the very end of 2024 as a paper launch. Offc Intel could decide not to implement it in ARL too I assume, to derisk the development
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
Internal Intel 3 node for backside power delivery, officially Intel 20A for both, prob going to in ARL. It seems to be pretty much impossible for Intel 20A to be out 2024, unless its at the very end of 2024 as a paper launch. Offc Intel could decide not to implement it in ARL too I assume, to derisk the development
Let's see Raptor refresh is coming by end of September whatever the final specs are on it. MTL mobile comes out sometime this year or next. I want to say there has been a year or two where Intel didn't release a major platform and it was pushed way to the end and launching early next year. A health intel firing on all pots would have released 2 major milestones in a year like they have a few times in the past. Arrowlake based on rumors I've read and been posted here uses a new approach to the design based on the Intel engineering day of 2020 or 2021... anyway it's a lot for a first generation product. the backside power delivery is a new feature but as is their new transistor tech. It's a lot on their plate. My only other guess is they do what you said but they're producing right now and testing long term to address issues. mtl es are in the wild as of 2 days ago. still no clue when they'd launch but if arrowlake is to follow those es and es leaks will be gold for anyone who can get their hands on them with the dev board or the prelim data. getting all this right is essential for Intel to catch up or lose more if they fail.
 

Saylick

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2012
3,532
7,858
136
That falls in line with blackwell still being a monolothic die. Do you think nvidia would sooner move to chiplets on consumer or their pro hardware?
I don't mean to derail the thread but to answer your question, I think Nvidia will delay moving to MCM, chiplets, or some form of advanced packaging for as long as possible. They'll start with their server hardware in the form of COPA, then if there's even a desire for it, they'll transition the top SKU (i.e. xx100 or xx102 class dies) as the flagship xx90 and xx90 Ti to the consumer side. Anything less than that can remain monolithic. MLID speculated that Nvidia might not even care in the near future that their top consumer SKU isn't some >500mm2 honking GPU because their game plan is to just win via software features, not raw horsepower outright. That, along the fact that they much prefer the margins in the enterprise space, means consumers are valued less and less to them moving forward.