Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Page 82 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
696
602
106
PPT1.jpg
PPT2.jpg
PPT3.jpg



As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15

LNL-MX.png

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



Clockspeed.png
 

Attachments

  • PantherLake.png
    PantherLake.png
    283.5 KB · Views: 24,006
  • LNL.png
    LNL.png
    881.8 KB · Views: 25,490
Last edited:

Exist50

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2016
2,452
3,102
136
How old does a forum poster need to be before you understand this endless quarrel is completely detrimental to the health of the forum? I'm tired of the same noise every day, I read less and interact less because people actively choose to inject their opinions everywhere between the few actual good leaks we get on new products. For me the highlight of the Intel threads was those Granite Rapids and Sierra Forest slides, I finally got to read things without constant interjections from overzealous forum members.

Constant arguments drive the typical users away, and you will be left with partizans willing to stomach the trolling.
It's simple. He will not be happy until he drives everyone away that doesn't hate Intel as much as he does, and he doesn't care how many forum rules he needs to break to do it. Nor how many lies he needs to tell.
 

nicalandia

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,331
5,282
136
Explain that estimation please?
Agregate performance is IPC + Speed regardless of core count and uArch. The x2 is exactly 100% performance boost when compared to Emerald Rapids 64C. Being 120 cores gives about 13% boost per core and that is the combination of IPC and Speed. Beign optimistic thats about 10% IPC Boost and 5% Speed
 
Last edited:

H433x0n

Golden Member
Mar 15, 2023
1,209
1,572
96
Constant arguments drive the typical users away, and you will be left with partizans willing to stomach the trolling.

As somebody new to this forum, I completely agree. In my view, this place is supposed to be a more technical and grown up version of r/Hardware. It would be a shame for it to devolve to just partisan bickering.
 

Exist50

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2016
2,452
3,102
136
Agregate performance is IPC + Speed regardless of core count and uArch. The x2 is exactly 100% performance boost when compared to Emerald Rapids 64C. Being 120 cores gives about 13% boost per core and that is the combination of IPC and Speed. Beign optimistic thats about 10% IPC Boost and 5% Speed
With a node shrink, speed should see >5% improvements at a server operating point. It's hard to even speculate with neither Intel 4/3 data nor EMR data, but only 5% would be a failure. Especially since they're unlikely to get 10% IPC.

And I think "aggregate performance" is just peak throughput, which basically scales with cores, clocks, and memory bandwidth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Geddagod

Geddagod

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2021
1,296
1,368
106
Agregate performance is IPC + Speed regardless of core count and uArch. The x2 is exactly 100% performance boost when compared to Emerald Rapids 64C. Being 120 cores gives about 13% boost per core and that is the combination of IPC and Speed. Beign optimistic thats about 10% IPC Boost and 5% Speed
I used the +40% performance claim between GNR SP and EMR for my math:
SPR/EMR and GNR SP both have 350W TDP no?
~40% better aggregate performance. Nice.
80/64 = 25%, the remaining ~10% performance looks to be coming from better clocks+IPC. Impressive, considering GNR SP still has more cores and yet clocks better as well compared to EMR.
RWC IPC gains should be very low, I'm guessing most of the gains come from clocks.
In comparison, going from 84 cores vs 64 cores on the same node looks to be a ~10% loss in clocks (for Genoa and similar TDP). Same with going from 60 cores vs 48 cores for SPR (25% gain in cores just like 80/64 cores of GNR-AP vs EMR).
So the gain in frequency/watt from RWC is ~20%?
Hmmm sounds like that slide from Adored TV
(insert slide showing 20% better core performance from power-perf improvements)
I don't think IPC gain will be that large for RWC, which was the core they said they were using in that 2X performance slide.
I mean I would love to be wrong, since that means better products for RWC products, but I just don't think it's happening....
Unless the way better bandwidth per core for memory and also prob L3 could boost it by that much, (I don't think it will be a whole 10% though), but that also seems to be unique to RWC on server vs GLC on server, not RWC client vs GLC client.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nicalandia

nicalandia

Diamond Member
Jan 10, 2019
3,331
5,282
136
But I mean granite rapids does not seem to compete with Genoa on any level. Or I am misreading this leak ??
Only the AP Variant(I don't remember but I read that the AP variant have been cancel or perhaps its Sierra Forest AP have been cancelled), The AP variant of Granite Rapids will have 120 Cores with about 15% aggregate performance per core and 12 Channel of DDR5, So in Paper that's quite competitive... But the SP variant will be restricted to 80 Cores 8 Channel DDR5 and that is not competitive of curse
 
  • Like
Reactions: Geddagod

Exist50

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2016
2,452
3,102
136
So MTL would be a side grade at best when you have true Raptor Cove Cores on a Laptop?
MTL will probably benefit from better graphics, accelerators, power efficiency, and MT performance (i.e. power-limited performance). But peak ST to peak ST, seems like it's going to wind up very close to RPL mobile. Hence why it's not showing up on the desktop.
 

Exist50

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2016
2,452
3,102
136
And maybe lastly.... I am not biased
You call people trolls for referencing data that disagrees with whatever you happen to be lying about, come into threads like this just to insult everyone, and openly and repeatedly falsify claims about Intel. The vast majority of your comments in this Intel thread alone are just saying how much better AMD is and you believe will be.

No reasonable person could view your history on this forum and consider you unbiased. Your definition of a "good product" seems to constantly shift to whatever AMD does differently, without any regard to consistency or objective merits.

Seriously, is this a joke that's going over my head?
 

reqq

Member
Feb 26, 2020
31
35
91
Hi, can someone smart speculate how good the ram latency will be on arrow lake compared to raptor lake. They say arrow lake will support 6400 mhz ram, which is higher then raptor lake. But all this new tile design makes me wonder if the ram latency advantage intel has will remain?
 

esquared

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 8, 2000
24,036
5,178
146
This thread is locked for awhile.

Get back on topic or infractions will be given.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mopetar

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
imo meteor lake this fall for mobile because it's cancelled for desktop. raptor refresh this summer for desktop delivering more cache and whatever crap intel has devised, arrow lake release in q1 2024, lunar lake a mobile only platform in q3 or q4 2024, panther lake in q4 2024 or q1 2025.

it wouldn't be the first time intel released 2 major desktop generations in a 365 day period. to quote the general theme being said by many is intel is plowing through the generations in volume or not in volume to show shareholders they mean business. realistically the take rate for mtl will be high but not high for arrow lake since it'll be a first gen chiplet product from intel in its most modern sense. 12th gen was a new design approach and problematic whether people want to admit it or not. 13th gen does not have those same issues.

it doesn't help that windows 11 is junk, but both gens display normal behavior under windows 10 enviros even if they're not 100pc efficiently using their core context switching capabilities due to the scheduler.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
It would be pretty surprising if Intel managed a desktop Arrow Lake launch in Q1 2024.
the smack talk online is pointing towards to them being on schedule or slightly ahead. whether that's bull will be realized later but if they can manage two major launches in a year like they have in the past I would be surprised too.

I'm not sure how it'll work with mtl-s taken out of the mix and whether or not arrow and panther are on the same platform socket or not. arrow is supposed to be impresive but it's a 1st gen chiplet product from intel. Panther Lake will remedy those issues if any and deliver a new core design for both p and e. there was a nova lake on an old slide from 2020 or 2021 but nothing since then. Nova would land in 2025 or 2026 and I suspect it'll be much a ddr4 and ddr5 split window period. ddr6 is supposed to come out in 2026 according to samsung.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,065
11,693
136
the smack talk online is pointing towards to them being on schedule or slightly ahead. whether that's bull will be realized later but if they can manage two major launches in a year like they have in the past I would be surprised too.

I'm not sure how it'll work with mtl-s taken out of the mix and whether or not arrow and panther are on the same platform socket or not. arrow is supposed to be impresive but it's a 1st gen chiplet product from intel. Panther Lake will remedy those issues if any and deliver a new core design for both p and e. there was a nova lake on an old slide from 2020 or 2021 but nothing since then. Nova would land in 2025 or 2026 and I suspect it'll be much a ddr4 and ddr5 split window period. ddr6 is supposed to come out in 2026 according to samsung.

The only way Arrow Lake happens that quickly is if Intel has been porting it to N3/N3e the entire time as a failsafe in case their own nodes aren't ready. Intel 4 still isn't on the market, does anyone believe that Intel will have Intel 3 or 20a or whatever available by Q1 2024? I certainly don't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: clemsyn

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
The only way Arrow Lake happens that quickly is if Intel has been porting it to N3/N3e the entire time as a failsafe in case their own nodes aren't ready. Intel 4 still isn't on the market, does anyone believe that Intel will have Intel 3 or 20a or whatever available by Q1 2024? I certainly don't.
GR has been sampling to key customers for a while now.Or do you mean general availability to anyone and all DC?
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,065
11,693
136
GR has been sampling to key customers for a while now.Or do you mean general availability to anyone and all DC?

General availability. Heck "sampling" still means they haven't even started under-the-table ODM sales in any kind of volume. They only just got Sapphire Rapids to market in any capacity, and Emerald Rapids hasn't even appeared. Granite Rapids is just not going to pop out that quickly.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
General availability. Heck "sampling" still means they haven't even started under-the-table ODM sales in any kind of volume. They only just got Sapphire Rapids to market in any capacity, and Emerald Rapids hasn't even appeared. Granite Rapids is just not going to pop out that quickly.
There it is. Classic Mr. Lord complaining. I'm teasing you but they're pushing forward faster than they normally would have if their timeline had been on time. Sampling is a good sign because of how hard the processors are pushed to see the cracks in performance and stability. This is in line with what I said yesterday or the day before. We're going to see some rapid deployments across the intel lineup as they make up for being so slow in fighting against AMD and the longer the clocks tick the further market share they lose to AMD. Even now with a cheaper raptor lake series they're losing out to AMD in user uptake through sales. They may make more money than AMD but what counts is what's deployed imo. this is why I said ... maybe the other day that no one should be surprised if you see 3 generations of desktop release in 2 years if Pat "Guns A'blazin Pew Pew Gunslinger" Gelsinger isn't bs'ing anyone outside of intel. There's a lot riding on Intel not dropping the ball again. Gelsinger may look like a discount store version of Paul Anka but he's got more soul in him to bring back Intel roaring to life and beyond.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
4,247
2,311
136
ES samples from Intel are very early usually, for us what matters is the store availability, when can we buy it. First Intel 3 server CPUs should be available around the middle of 2024....if there are no unforeseen delays which always could happen. They say Sierra Forest shipping first half 2024, in most cases it's towards the end. Shipping to availability are another 2+ months on desktop CPUs, for mobile much longer obviously. I don't think we can expect 20A CPU tiles before early 2025 in stores. I hope we can get something in H2 2025 on 18A, with Panther Lake hopefully they can use 18A on all variants, at the moment it's a bit messy. And 18A ist the most important because it's the foundry customer node.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,065
11,693
136
We're going to see some rapid deployments across the intel lineup as they make up for being so slow in fighting against AMD and the longer the clocks tick the further market share they lose to AMD.

"I'll believe it when I see it". They may WANT to speed up their processes, but based on the immediate past it's hard to believe that they'll reach those targets. Intel has been blowing this smoke for awhile, but what are the results? Best-case scenario, we see market readiness for Intel 4 in late 2023, Intel 3 in late 2024, and Intel 20a in late 2025. Best case.

Realstically-speaking, Intel probably couldn't get 20a ready before 2027. At least based on 14nm and 10nm-family nodes and their rates of progression, along with Intel 4 which is going to be three years late (was supposed to debut in Ponte Vecchio some time ago).

Complaining or not complaining, Intel doesn't have room the screw up like this anymore. They have a gun to their heads, and it's about to go off. AMD doesn't have to worry about annoying one forum keyboard warrior because Zen4 was 4-5 months off-cadence (or whatever). Intel has billions of dollars on the line attached to major customers that will eventually abandon Intel's struggle to retain relevance.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: moinmoin and A///

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
"I'll believe it when I see it". They may WANT to speed up their processes, but based on the immediate past it's hard to believe that they'll reach those targets. Intel has been blowing this smoke for awhile, but what are the results? Best-case scenario, we see market readiness for Intel 4 in late 2023, Intel 3 in late 2024, and Intel 20a in late 2025. Best case.

Realstically-speaking, Intel probably couldn't get 20a ready before 2027. At least based on 14nm and 10nm-family nodes and their rates of progression, along with Intel 4 which is going to be three years late (was supposed to debut in Ponte Vecchio some time ago).

Complaining or not complaining, Intel doesn't have room the screw up like this anymore. They have a gun to their heads, and it's about to go off. AMD doesn't have to worry about annoying one forum keyboard warrior because Zen4 was 4-5 months off-cadence (or whatever). Intel has billions of dollars on the line attached to major customers that will eventually abandon their struggle to retain relevance.
I agree but your forgetting that all of what you said could and was said about amd not long ago. I would still argue they have a gun to their head now that intel is nipping at their heels like piranhas. the rest of your aaron sorkin like post is correct but give it time.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,065
11,693
136
I agree but your forgetting that all of what you said could and was said about amd not long ago. I would still argue they have a gun to their head now that intel is nipping at their heels like piranhas. the rest of your aaron sorkin like post is correct but give it time.

Intel is no meaningful threat to AMD now that AMD has attached themselves to a better foundry partner. Intel is becoming dependent on the same foundry partner. If anyone is a threat to AMD right now it's possibly TSMC (or their dependence on them). But that is a discussion for another thread.

Intel does not really have time. I can give them all the rope they need; that's irrelevant. They're making launch projections that would be impossible to reach under even ideal circumstances.
 
  • Like
Reactions: moinmoin

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
3,158
136
Intel is no meaningful threat to AMD now that AMD has attached themselves to a better foundry partner. Intel is becoming dependent on the same foundry partner. If anyone is a threat to AMD right now it's possibly TSMC (or their dependence on them). But that is a discussion for another thread.

Intel does not really have time. I can give them all the rope they need; that's irrelevant. They're making launch projections that would be impossible to reach under even ideal circumstances.
If tsmc is a threat to amd they're a threat to apple if you mean failing to produce a future working node for a long time or one that performs poorly like 28nm was it? I don't think tsmc would bump off amd. Amd is too good for them and not thuggish like jh tried to be. Amd is a glory story for tsmc to waft in front of Intel like a big old stinker they've been holding in for hours. The rest of your post reads like I'm reading morris chang's thoughts.