Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15

LNL-MX.png

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



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Hulk

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Wait a minute. Wasn't the rumor that Meteor Lake would be mobile only because Intel couldn't get frequencies to ramp up on the new node? If TMSC is doing the CPU tiles then what's the deal with the node? It's not even Intel's node?
 

mikk

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Wait a minute. Wasn't the rumor that Meteor Lake would be mobile only because Intel couldn't get frequencies to ramp up on the new node? If TMSC is doing the CPU tiles then what's the deal with the node? It's not even Intel's node?


No it wasn't, there is no serious rumor like that. Some people may speculate this is the reason but this is just a guess. Also there is no confirmation about no MTL for desktop.
 

Exist50

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Wait a minute. Wasn't the rumor that Meteor Lake would be mobile only because Intel couldn't get frequencies to ramp up on the new node? If TMSC is doing the CPU tiles then what's the deal with the node? It's not even Intel's node?
TSMC is not doing the Meteor Lake CPU tile. They're doing all the other top dies though.
 

SiliconFly

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Wait a minute. Wasn't the rumor that Meteor Lake would be mobile only because Intel couldn't get frequencies to ramp up on the new node? If TMSC is doing the CPU tiles then what's the deal with the node? It's not even Intel's node?

Just rumors. Waiting for more info. At this point we can easily rule out 6+8 as it appears to be a sandbagging trick. If I remember right, Intel 4 HP libraries should be able to handle 5.5 GHz easily. Beyond that is we still don't yet.
 

BorisTheBlade82

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Just rumors. Waiting for more info. At this point we can easily rule out 6+8 as it appears to be a sandbagging trick. If I remember right, Intel 4 HP libraries should be able to handle 5.5 GHz easily. Beyond that is we still don't yet.
IIRC the "big" MTL compute tile is supposed to have gotten cancelled. IMHO that is the 6/8+16 you are talking about. Now only the 6+8 as well as the 2+8 are left. That might arrive in the Mid to Low range Desktop at some point but should start as mobile only.
MTL looks like IceLake-U at best and Cannon Lake at worst.
 

SiliconFly

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Way I'd interpret is that the 24/25 desktop would be Arrow Lake (at TSMC) for the high end and the 6+8 Meteor Lake tile at the lower end.

Actually, intel's plan for desktop parts hasn't leaked yet. Some rumors say meteor lake has no desktop parts! Doesn't sound right.

Meteor lake is a Q4 2023 product.
Arrow Lake is Q3 2024 product.

Intel going without any new desktop parts from late this year to Q3 2024 doesn't sound right. Even a raptor lake refresh doesn't sound very appealing. I'm sure they're cooking something better than a RPL refresh. Wish they shed some light sooner rather than later.
 

BorisTheBlade82

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Actually, intel's plan for desktop parts hasn't leaked yet. Some rumors say meteor lake has no desktop parts! Doesn't sound right.

Meteor lake is a Q4 2023 product.
Arrow Lake is Q3 2024 product.

Intel going without any new desktop parts from late this year to Q3 2024 doesn't sound right. Even a raptor lake refresh doesn't sound very appealing. I'm sure they're cooking something better than a RPL refresh. Wish they shed some light sooner rather than later.
I fear, that exactly what you fear is what will happen 🤷🏽‍♂️
 
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jpiniero

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Actually, intel's plan for desktop parts hasn't leaked yet. Some rumors say meteor lake has no desktop parts! Doesn't sound right.

There was a legit looking roadmap leaked which had Raptor Lake Refresh on it. If anything, the question is going to be whether Intel feels compelled to also do mobile rebrands to help cover up Meteor Lake's low supply.
 

Kepler_L2

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There was a legit looking roadmap leaked which had Raptor Lake Refresh on it. If anything, the question is going to be whether Intel feels compelled to also do mobile rebrands to help cover up Meteor Lake's low supply.
That will be the case yep. It's basically Ice Lake/Comet Lake generation all over again.
 

Exist50

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That will be the case yep. It's basically Ice Lake/Comet Lake generation all over again.
Seems more like Tiger Lake. 6+8 should be enough for use in the H series. So just like Tiger Lake, we're going to get mobile on the new gen, and desktop on the older. Though I guess unlike Tiger Lake, we should eventually see MTL in the mainstream to low end desktop market.
 
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SiliconFly

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Seems more like Tiger Lake. 6+8 should be enough for use in the H series. So just like Tiger Lake, we're going to get mobile on the new gen, and desktop on the older. Though I guess unlike Tiger Lake, we should eventually see MTL in the mainstream to low end desktop market.

MTL 6+8 is just a rumor. Another rumor said 6+16. The later sounds more plausible.
 

Geddagod

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Intel themselves have shown a 6+8 die. It's the only one we have confirmation for other than 2+8.
I think it's a decent assumption to make that a 8+16 MTL die could have been planned, even if it never got anywhere. RPL only exists because MTL was coming in late, so that makes it seem like a 8+16 MTL desktop sku would have been planned (or at least an 8+8) to fill out their desktop cadence.
A 6+16 die just sounds weird, because that would just look weird as a successor to Alder Lake desktop, while also looking weird as a successor to Alder Lake mobile as HX skus would on alder lake had 8 big cores. One could argue 6+16 die if Meteor Lake was always planned to be a mobile only lineup, but I don't think so.
 

IntelUser2000

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But nominal speed is the standard clock being advertised and that associate with the TDP. Even with tile design, the rules apply.

No, with today's designs it's advanced enough that the clocks are workload dependent. Web browsing TDP levels are different from running Intel LinX FPU stress test to tell you of extreme examples. So the clocks would be higher in the former than the latter. It's possible that in some cases like LinX the clock can go slight below TDP clock levels.

That's the whole beauty of Turbo. Maximum performance in all applications.

@SiliconFly You are relying on all the wrong sources.

-The press all believed Meteorlake used TSMC N3 tiles, hence putting out "Intel now using the older N5 node!"
-In fact, Intel never planned for N3, and Meteorlake was always N5.
-Arrowlake changes things.
-Raptorlake refresh was pretty much confirmed by Intel. Day before the original day they were supposed to do a Client roadmap presentation, a roadmap leaked out showing that Raptorlake Refresh is in the cards. Meteorlake is primarily mobile. Raptorlake Refresh gets replaced by Arrowlake, but later than in the year compared to Meteorlake mobile
-If anything, 6+16 for Meteorlake is a rumor. 2+8 and 6+8 are facts.

The Redwood Cove P core in Meteorlake is supposed to be single-digit % faster per clock. Why would you waste time trying to get that out for desktop, if Arrowlake can be accelerated by not releasing Meteorlake desktop?

Intel's primary goals are to get the "5 nodes in 4 years" accomplished. You do that by skipping parts. Skipping Meteorlake to get Arrowlake faster does that goal. Getting Meteorlake out that's barely faster than predecessor does not.
 

IntelUser2000

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Does a new architecture mean just adding and cutting stuff without changing any principles of how things function, or is function improvements (as branch predictions etc.) necessary for a new architecture?

I believe that resizing, ommiting and adding stuff without changing any function principles may not be that complicated...

Sigh.

@Markfw You don't need to be a CPU designer to know this.

The designers are bound by cost AND space constraints. Within that space they need to arrange the functional blocks in a manner that doesn't waste any space. Or maximizes the amount of features.

Certain blocks will end up being irregular in size.

Now we got that established, think of how the game of Tetris works. You cannot just add to a block without impacting the rest of the block, since the structures are irregular in shape. And not only that, certain blocks need to be in certain proximity to each other. Because that determines performance.

You cannot add or substract a block, or resize it without affecting the rest. And that will affect performance and power characteristics. What you are thinking is not a refresh at all. These people are dealing with HUNDREDS of millions of transistors here. What you are saying will end up a full blown architectural update.

These people are called "architects" for a reason. Think of massive ships like oil tankers. What about Boeing's 787 Dreamliner? What about Skyscrapers over a thousand feet high? Think of those projects, but at a micro-level. That's what CPU architects are.

"Nah just add a floor for a minor update"
"Extra engine for the 787"
"Let's move the propulsion propellers in this oil tanker to a different side"

Take a look at the die shot of Intel's 8086 chip. Then look at 80286, and so on. By the time Pentium rolls in, it goes from being able to almost distinguish individual blocks and wires connecting them, to these array of beautiful solid blocks. If you see how complex the 8086 is with total number of circuitry under 30,000(30 thousand), you'll get an idea of how complex modern CPUs are. Just the core component(which is the most difficult to work with must be in the hundreds of millions now).

Now take that CPU and try modifying it. Knowing fully a SINGLE wire can make it not work at all. Even with aid of computers, it's incredibly difficult.

Literally in a refresh you can change clocks and voltage. Nothing else.
 
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Hulk

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I think it's a decent assumption to make that a 8+16 MTL die could have been planned, even if it never got anywhere. RPL only exists because MTL was coming in late, so that makes it seem like a 8+16 MTL desktop sku would have been planned (or at least an 8+8) to fill out their desktop cadence.
A 6+16 die just sounds weird, because that would just look weird as a successor to Alder Lake desktop, while also looking weird as a successor to Alder Lake mobile as HX skus would on alder lake had 8 big cores. One could argue 6+16 die if Meteor Lake was always planned to be a mobile only lineup, but I don't think so.

After the 10 core Comet Lake, the 8 core Rocket Lake looked weird. But it appeared on the desktop. It's all about what is the best balance of performance and economics for the parts Intel will release. I am under the assumption that the Raptor Refresh will be as fast or faster than a desktop Meteor Lake and cheaper to produce and able to be produced in large numbers.

It's very similar to how the Haswell Refresh (Devil's Canyon) put Broadwell in the mobile box. Or Rocket Lake only appeared because Ice Lake/Tiger Lake clocks weren't where they needed to be for the desktop.

To be completely transparent Raptor Lake is really an Alder Lake Refresh but a really good one as the increased cache, frequency, and cores really pushed Raptor out far ahead of Alder. Problem is I don't see much "gas" in that refresh tank for Alder/Raptor. With clocks at 6GHz, caches quite large, and the core count up to 24, where do they go with it?

As I posted earlier I think we're looking at increased all-core frequencies across the board and call it a day. Just seems like a weak update if that's the case but we'll see.
 

Exist50

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I think it's a decent assumption to make that a 8+16 MTL die could have been planned, even if it never got anywhere. RPL only exists because MTL was coming in late, so that makes it seem like a 8+16 MTL desktop sku would have been planned (or at least an 8+8) to fill out their desktop cadence.
A 6+16 die just sounds weird, because that would just look weird as a successor to Alder Lake desktop, while also looking weird as a successor to Alder Lake mobile as HX skus would on alder lake had 8 big cores. One could argue 6+16 die if Meteor Lake was always planned to be a mobile only lineup, but I don't think so.
Yeah, 6+16 would be an odd chip, but I don't think it's entirely out of the question that they planned for it at one point. It would sort of make sense as a stopgap for Arrow Lake a bit earlier, and as an option for high end mobile. But that's pretty weak positioning all said. I think the lack of a compelling gaming advantage would hurt the most. And given Intel's pretty drastic cost cutting, makes sense if it were canceled.
 

Geddagod

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Yeah, 6+16 would be an odd chip, but I don't think it's entirely out of the question that they planned for it at one point. It would sort of make sense as a stopgap for Arrow Lake a bit earlier, and as an option for high end mobile. But that's pretty weak positioning all said. I think the lack of a compelling gaming advantage would hurt the most. And given Intel's pretty drastic cost cutting, makes sense if it were canceled.
I would believe they planned it, but it would make much more sense if the die planned was 8+16, and they just thought they could hit the yield requirements or something, and just decided to disable 2 of those cores because of it. So essentially a 6+16 without having to redesign an entire die.
 

Geddagod

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After the 10 core Comet Lake, the 8 core Rocket Lake looked weird. But it appeared on the desktop. It's all about what is the best balance of performance and economics for the parts Intel will release. I am under the assumption that the Raptor Refresh will be as fast or faster than a desktop Meteor Lake and cheaper to produce and able to be produced in large numbers.

It's very similar to how the Haswell Refresh (Devil's Canyon) put Broadwell in the mobile box. Or Rocket Lake only appeared because Ice Lake/Tiger Lake clocks weren't where they needed to be for the desktop.

To be completely transparent Raptor Lake is really an Alder Lake Refresh but a really good one as the increased cache, frequency, and cores really pushed Raptor out far ahead of Alder. Problem is I don't see much "gas" in that refresh tank for Alder/Raptor. With clocks at 6GHz, caches quite large, and the core count up to 24, where do they go with it?

As I posted earlier I think we're looking at increased all-core frequencies across the board and call it a day. Just seems like a weak update if that's the case but we'll see.
8 core RKL was a diff situation. The cores were physically too big. What are the chances that Intel thought yields would just be bad enough to have to cancel the 8+16 die, but just good enough that they would be able to only have to disable 2 P-cores? And even if that were true, what are the chances Intel decided to commit to redesigning the entire die off that premise?
I agree with RPL-R running out of gas. The Intel copium in me is hoping we see the rumored increased L3 caches in RPL cores of EMR into desktop, but realistically I know that's almost certainly not going to happen... LOL