Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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Apr 1, 2022
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PPT1.jpg
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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15

LNL-MX.png

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



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adroc_thurston

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Jul 2, 2023
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C'mon this is elementary physics. Forget CPUs, imagine that the MBA's 50 watt hour battery is powering a light bulb. If Apple makes a light bulb that lasts for 20 hours on that 50 watt hour battery, and Intel makes a light bulb that can do the same, I think you're smart enough to be able to conclude both light bulbs are drawing the same amount of power and therefore radiate the same amount of heat.
?
Apple BL advantage is brutally efficient LITTLEs, fabric and the rest of uncore.
nT PPT is not very related to that.
MBAs don't draw 10W sustained in relevant BL tests.
 

TwistedAndy

Member
May 23, 2024
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Apple BL advantage is brutally efficient LITTLEs, fabric and the rest of uncore.
Yes.

In general, battery life depends on a lot of factors like screen brightness, Wi-Fi and SSD activity, power policy, etc. The SoC power consumption is only one of them :)

For example, a 4K screen in Dell XPS 17 can draw up to 13.73W at full brightness.
 

SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
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... Arctic Wolf is going to make it obsolete.
After silvermont, goldmont, tremont, gracemont, crestmont & skymont, now they're ditching the -mont and going with a completely new naming scheme -wolf. This actually means something.

Also, we already know Nova Lake is getting Arctic Wolf E cores, but not much details on the Nova Lake P cores. This too means something.

The time frame fits perfectly. I now strongly feel Arctic Wolf is actually the rumored Royal Core. And there's something strange going on with the Nova Lake P cores. Rentable Units?

Pantherlake is supposed to launch in 2025 on 18A...
Panther Lake is mobile only. Desktop will still be Arrow Lake refresh with Lion Cove! :(


...especially since Intel now lets it pick and choose the best node for its chips. AMDs boon of great TSMC performance is no longer exclusive to AMD.
This part is true.

But honestly, Intel is not out of the woods yet!
 

DavidC1

Senior member
Dec 29, 2023
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C'mon this is elementary physics. Forget CPUs, imagine that the MBA's 50 watt hour battery is powering a light bulb. If Apple makes a light bulb that lasts for 20 hours on that 50 watt hour battery, and Intel makes a light bulb that can do the same, I think you're smart enough to be able to conclude both light bulbs are drawing the same amount of power and therefore radiate the same amount of heat.
@adroc_thurston is right though.

Battery life metrics are bursty scenarios for the reason that load is pretty much battery size/average peak power. In load, the ideal battery life CPU is a 2W single core E core chip, but you are much more limited in what you can do so the TDP is higher.

Then how low the idle power is and how often you can stay there is basically the metric of battery life. That's why things like ISA flat out don't matter.
,
So theoretically you can have a 100W TDP CPU but idle power management so good that you can have 2.5W screen-on power on video playback or WiFi. That's 20 hours using a 50WHr battery.

In contrast the older pre-Medfield Atoms had 5W standby like pre-Haswell devices so with a 3W TDP chip you had 10 hour battery doing absolutely nothing.
 
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poke01

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And here it is. This here lasted 2 days. I imagine best buy will also get a lot of returns. In Australia, JB-Hi-Fi had $200 AUD gift cards for preorders and I never seen them offer that for any Intel/AMD/Apple laptop. I do hope more reviews come out.

Students will also need x86 especially CS.

Looks it’s a very rocky road ahead
 

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
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Is Lunar Lake showing that Intel is "worrying" about Apple?
Yes.

However, I don’t fully agree with the other posters that the Performance cores are just generic in this and don’t matter etc.

Apple’s stuff is still about the P cores too. Apple can pull great ST that AMD and Intel can’t below 10W. Even M4 in total device power minus idle on the iPad was 11W.

3800 for 11W.

So that does matter and helps — people like that about M-series Macs — a fan isn’t going to go nuts real easily and responsiveness is high without hitting battery life which yes it will hurt if you’re sucking down 2.5x the power just in general mixed office use to keep responsiveness.

Or you can gut responsiveness a bit to compete which is probably what Intel will end up doing often with Skymont in LNL, just to a more tolerable degree than anything before. Intel is already saying LNL does MTL ST at half the power (SoC level power and presumably talking about LNC). That’s… a big improvement depending on where they took the measurement from, but still nothing Apple-tier keeping in mind MTL doing like 2000-2400 GB6 @ 18-25W. Will they get more than that MTL at the same old 20-25W stuff? Probably, which is going to be funny when M4 does 30%+ more in ST at half the power. and even M3 P cores sound like they’ll take LNL to the woodshed. If anyone thinks LNL is going to even pull a 3200 GB6 at 9W, speak now — I’d love to be wrong lmfao.

However as another poster points out, it’s true the MT power/w advantage at higher power levels is not that high or at least seems to vary and I suspect Strix for example will put AMD in a decent place.
Or just the buzz around M1 and Macbook Air's fanless performance showing that there's enough demand for that segment that they should take it more seriously?
I mean, yes? That’s the same thing in some ways. But it’s not really about fanless alone. LNL wins will absolutely be majority fan laptops, just much better performance without making the fans kick in, and longer battery life.
I mean, it isn't like Apple hadn't been banging down Intel's doors asking for lower power CPUs for well over a decade - and had moved from PPC in the first place because Motorola was getting out of the game and IBM was focused on workstation level performance!


I guess they didn't learn that lesson then, or maybe thought "well those people are buying Macs because they're in the Apple cult not because they like the products" and were caught off guard by all the Wintel customers who saw the M1 Macbook Air and said "why can't I buy a Windows laptop like this one?"
I told you this was a thing a while ago. Apple makes good chips, and it really isn’t just the MBA. This is 75% of why MS wants to hedge with QC and MediaTek/NV more than the cope from dumb leakers in this forum about faddishness (though there is that element lol).
 
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lightisgood

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May 27, 2022
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And here it is. This here lasted 2 days. I imagine best buy will also get a lot of returns. In Australia, JB-Hi-Fi had $200 AUD gift cards for preorders and I never seen them offer that for any Intel/AMD/Apple laptop. I do hope more reviews come out.

Students will also need x86 especially CS.

Looks it’s a very rocky road ahead

I would like to observe the Pluton security hole following the compatibility problem...

 

Henry swagger

Senior member
Feb 9, 2022
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Moreover, the
Ie
Skymont is a Marvel, Lion Cove no.

Lion Cover targets to be 50% more IPC over Golden Cove. Yeah here we will have an Apple Killer. The 20A saves LNC to be a Power Hungry beast.

Skymont IPC is not far from Lion Cove IPC, the proper Intel Graphs don't lie about it.
I think lion cove will be 25% plus over raptor cove with avx512 plus 3nm l2
 
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Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
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I think the leaks suggest it hits 5.7ghz.. people can oc it
6.1Ghz --> 5.7Ghz is still a ~7% regression. If you're expecting Lion Cove to be 25% faster than Raptor Cove, that would be a 32% IPC increase if rumored clocks end up being true (ST performance that is). I'm hoping LC brings good IPC gains but 32% seems REALLY optimistic.
 

naukkis

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Jun 5, 2002
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LionCove at ArrowLake will be different. Intel itself admitted that logic was removed from the LunarLake variant to save space and power consumption. One such thing is that the L1 and L2 communication bandwidth in ArrowLake will be 128B instead of 64B like in LunarLake.
Intel says the 64B's L1 and L2 communication links provide a smaller footprint, which is key for LunarLake. But ArrowLake doesn't need such compromises, where performance comes first.

128B L1-L2 bandwith is needed to allow full AVX512-bandwidth from L2. With only 64B L1-read bandwidth from AVX2 128B L1-L2 bandwidth only offers minor benefits over 64B. So expect 128B L1-L2 to come with AVX512 support and cpu's without with 64B.
 

AMDK11

Senior member
Jul 15, 2019
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Exactly, but there is discussion that Lion Cove in Arrow Lake will see significant performance gains over Lion Cove in Lunar Lake. I'm rather skeptical but I'd like to understand why other folks may feel that way.
They could remove the HT logic from the core, so they could also remove the ADD, FMA, ROB, etc. transistors specifically for LunarLake.

So that it doesn't turn out that LionCove in LunarLake is the Light variant ;)
 
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