Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ?12 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15

LNL-MX.png

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)



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DavidC1

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Interesting. Someone just forgot about the recent Crestmont to Skymont.

Things happen. Both with AMD & Intel. We can never be sure of what to expect in this climate.
But Skymont is a huge change, while you are talking about 15% gains in essentially a near identical architecture.

The expectations are insane, such as 40% for Zen 5. Arrowlake uses the same tile configuration as Meteorlake, and Lunarlake is using a much saner approach. If anything, Lunarlake's Lion Cove should be faster than Lion Cove in Arrowlake.

I'd say your conclusions are insane, but I won't because I know you still got lot to learn.
It is much easier to increase IPC when starting from low IPC base (previous gen E-Cores) than from a much higher base (previous gen P-Cores)
Sure, but Apple has got it MUCH higher and even the ARM teams. This means the E core team is on the right track(still got ways to go) while the P core team needs a drastic overhaul, maybe a complete abandonment of the basic design.

14% difference per clock with near 3x difference should be a clue for everybody.

If they continue on the same path, Novalake will be a chip where P core's only advantage is in clocks, while still having the massive 3:1 area disadvantage. If the problem is due to the P core management and members being arrogant, the only way is to embarass them to destroy their attitude. Maybe bring the difference in core size down to 2:1 and beat the P core by 15% per clock.

Imagine if Conroe was a chip where it had Netburst and Core cores in one silicon.
 
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SiliconFly

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...essentially a near identical architecture. ...
That is the point of contention. I'm saying there is a good chance that ARL's LNC can have more significant changed over LNL's LNC. And as of now, only Intel know the facts. We can only assume either one way or the other...
 

CouncilorIrissa

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I'd wager there’s a very small intersection between people who benefit from LNL's performance on the go AND those doing the type of work that requires 4 or more monitors. If you have so many monitors it’s very likely that you have an actual workstation next to them.
 
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DavidC1

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That is the point of contention. I'm saying there is a good chance that ARL's LNC can have more significant changed over LNL's LNC. And as of now, only Intel know the facts. We can only assume either one way or the other...
There is no point of contention for the most part. Expecting anything more than 3%, in the best case scenario is the point of contention.

Arrowlake will need extra work just to be even with Lunarlake, due to the MOAR TILES setup it inherits from Meteorlake.
Is Arrow Lake going to inherit exact same core to core latency as Meteor Lake or could it be improved?
I would not be surprised if it's improved, because MTL is a product that was plagued with delays. There are micro-level details and decisions they had to make that we don't know.
 

Doug S

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Apple did it years ago with modems. They didn't just use different processes, they used entirely different OEMs (Intel and Qualcomm). That was quite a fiasco.

That didn't induce people to buy and return - a given SKU (based on country, and in the US which carrier it was purchased for / whether it was unlocked) determined whether you got the Qualcomm or Intel modem. You could buy all the iPhones you wanted that were sold for AT&T or T-mobile hoping to get one with a Qualcomm modem but it would be futile. You had to buy the unlocked version or one sold for the Verizon/Sprint networks that required CDMA.

A better comparison would be the iPhone 6S generation, which had A9s made by both Samsung and TSMC. The ones with TSMC were reported to run a bit cooler and have a bit better battery life, but there was no relationship between the SKU you ordered and whose chip would be in it, it was purely luck of the draw. That meant there really were people buying and returning to get the TSMC chip.

So I don't doubt people would do the same with Intel's chips if 1) there was a meaningful difference and 2) there was a way to tell without taking off the heat spreader and voiding warranty. If they are not selling the different ones under the same SKU that may be because the differences are meaningful (more meaningful than the Samsung vs TSMC A9 thing was) so if one was better on power they'd use it for the lower TDP ranges and if the other was better on frequency they'd use it for the high end parts.
 

Hans Gruber

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Wikipedia claims the IPC gain for Alder Lake was 18%. Considering that was a node shrink CPU on a new design with e-cores and p-cores. Is it safe to assume that Arrow Lake will have a comparable 18% IPC gain over Raptor Lake with another major node shrink? Then there is the 20A node performance uplift if there is one. The non K Arrow Lake chips are said to have a 65w TDP.
 

H433x0n

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Wikipedia claims the IPC gain for Alder Lake was 18%. Considering that was a node shrink CPU on a new design with e-cores and p-cores. Is it safe to assume that Arrow Lake will have a comparable 18% IPC gain over Raptor Lake with another major node shrink? Then there is the 20A node performance uplift if there is one. The non K Arrow Lake chips are said to have a 65w TDP.
No, I’d set my expectations at +14% for Lion Cove in ARL-S. There’s some chance it could be a few percent higher or there’s a non zero chance it could even be lower (depending if memory latency is truly atrocious).

Typically Intel aims for 20% and will usually get very close (Golden Cove was +19%, Cypress Cove was +19% too iirc). For all we know the desktop version of Lion Cove is upper teens but gets hit hard with a latency penalty.
 
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Wolverine2349

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I find it interesting that AMD is going to release Ryzen 9000 X3D chips in September?

At first it was maybe they could make it by end of year or into 2025. But suddenly AMD going to release them in September?

Which makes me wonder is there something about Intel Arrow Lake that is going to beat AMD or even beat them by a lot maybe even in gaming? If not why would AMD rush to release X3D chips before Arrow Lake is released? They want sales of X3D before Arrow Lake hits in October and ties or beats X3D?

Is there something known we do not know,. Or are they trying to put dagger in Intel by capturing market share early and Intel really will not Conroe like slaughter AMD with Arrow Lake?
 

Thunder 57

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I find it interesting that AMD is going to release Ryzen 9000 X3D chips in September?

At first it was maybe they could make it by end of year or into 2025. But suddenly AMD going to release them in September?

Which makes me wonder is there something about Intel Arrow Lake that is going to beat AMD or even beat them by a lot maybe even in gaming? If not why would AMD rush to release X3D chips before Arrow Lake is released? They want sales of X3D before Arrow Lake hits in October and ties or beats X3D?

Is there something known we do not know,. Or are they trying to put dagger in Intel by capturing market share early and Intel really will not Conroe like slaughter AMD with Arrow Lake?

Conroe moments have only happened when someones current uarch is garbage. I would not be expecting anything close to that.
 

SiliconFly

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I find it interesting that AMD is going to release Ryzen 9000 X3D chips in September?

At first it was maybe they could make it by end of year or into 2025. But suddenly AMD going to release them in September?

Which makes me wonder is there something about Intel Arrow Lake that is going to beat AMD or even beat them by a lot maybe even in gaming? If not why would AMD rush to release X3D chips before Arrow Lake is released? They want sales of X3D before Arrow Lake hits in October and ties or beats X3D?

Is there something known we do not know,. Or are they trying to put dagger in Intel by capturing market share early and Intel really will not Conroe like slaughter AMD with Arrow Lake?
It appears Zen5 won't be beating ARL by any significant margins. So, in order to differentiate, they're rushing X3D to make some difference.
 
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lightisgood

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I find it interesting that AMD is going to release Ryzen 9000 X3D chips in September?

At first it was maybe they could make it by end of year or into 2025. But suddenly AMD going to release them in September?

Which makes me wonder is there something about Intel Arrow Lake that is going to beat AMD or even beat them by a lot maybe even in gaming? If not why would AMD rush to release X3D chips before Arrow Lake is released? They want sales of X3D before Arrow Lake hits in October and ties or beats X3D?

Is there something known we do not know,. Or are they trying to put dagger in Intel by capturing market share early and Intel really will not Conroe like slaughter AMD with Arrow Lake?

Granite Rapids is probably competitive product.
Unsold Turin-X should be resold as X3D.
 

Wolverine2349

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Conroe moments have only happened when someones current uarch is garbage. I would not be expecting anything close to that.

What was the garbage arch during Intel Conroe moment almost 18 years ago in July 2006? AMD had Athlon 64 dual core which was considered great at the time? Are you saying AMD Athlon 64 X2 uArch was garbage? Or more that Intel Netburst UArch was garbage?

Intel's current 10nm Raptor Lake uARCH is not gharbage in terms of performance and in fact is quite competive. But it is garbaghe because of stability/fast degradation issues and insane heat output. Netburst was stable, but output too much heat and had garbage IPC desp[ite high clocks.
 

Wolverine2349

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Granite Rapids is probably competitive product.
Unsold Turin-X should be resold as X3D.


So AMD basically determining release cycle based on enterprise competition even for the desktop market?

Cause AMD had competition from Intel 13th to 14th Gen or the performance front in desktop and mobile market regarding trading blows with Zen 4 in overall performance. Though in enterprise and server space they did not have such competition.
 

Thunder 57

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What was the garbage arch during Intel Conroe moment almost 18 years ago in July 2006? AMD had Athlon 64 dual core which was considered great at the time? Are you saying AMD Athlon 64 X2 uArch was garbage? Or more that Intel Netburst UArch was garbage?

Intel's current 10nm Raptor Lake uARCH is not gharbage in terms of performance and in fact is quite competive. But it is garbaghe because of stability/fast degradation issues and insane heat output. Netburst was stable, but output too much heat and had garbage IPC desp[ite high clocks.

I see I needed to be more clear. By "someone" I meant the compaines current uarch. Intel had Netburst garbage then went to Conroe. AMD had Bulldozer garbage then went to Zen. So what I was trying to say is that because RPL isn't garbage, don't expect a Conroe moment.
 
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Joe NYC

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What was the garbage arch during Intel Conroe moment almost 18 years ago in July 2006? AMD had Athlon 64 dual core which was considered great at the time? Are you saying AMD Athlon 64 X2 uArch was garbage? Or more that Intel Netburst UArch was garbage?

The garbage processor was Pentium 4. Athlon 64 surpassed it, and then Conroe leapfrogged to the lead with a brand new architecture.

Intel's current 10nm Raptor Lake uARCH is not gharbage in terms of performance and in fact is quite competive. But it is garbaghe because of stability/fast degradation issues and insane heat output. Netburst was stable, but output too much heat and had garbage IPC desp[ite high clocks.

There are some parallels between P4 (Netburst) and Raptor Lake in needing excessive power to remain competitive.

But Raptor Lake is not exactly the same dead end as Netburst was (that needed a Conroe moment). Intel is still evolving the P cores and is still getting evolutionary uplift in LNC.
 
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Markfw

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Though didn't Conroe effectively blow out Athlon 64. It had 25-30% better IPC than Athlon 64 and could overclock easily and used less power.

Certainly not close to the blowout Sandy Bridge and above was over Bulldozer and its variants in double or more IPC.

Or the IPC blowout K8 had over Netburst by like 60-70%, though K8 clocked much lower but still spanked it.

What I mean by Conroe moment, does not necessarily mean there has to be a garbage arch, but could one company one up the other in these current times and have 25-30% IPC at higher clocks and less power draw. That's what Conroe did to K8 effectively right?
I don't want this OT discussion to keep going, but I had to mention the reason I switched. There was a 1.86 ghz conroe that would oc 100% to about 3.5 ghz. Thats why I switched to Intel at that time.
 
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Thunder 57

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...What I mean by Conroe moment, does not necessarily mean there has to be a garbage arch, but could one company one up the other in these current times and have 25-30% IPC at higher clocks and less power draw. That's what Conroe did to K8 effectively right?

I'll try to steer us back on topic.

I would say it's quite unlikely. AMD and Intel have already released IPC numbers. We also have a pretty good idea about clock speeds and power consumption. It will probably be another close race. I'd expect AMD to win in ST and Intel in nT (Skymont looks good). Power use should be closer but I think AMD keeps the advantage there.
 

ondma

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I find it interesting that AMD is going to release Ryzen 9000 X3D chips in September?

At first it was maybe they could make it by end of year or into 2025. But suddenly AMD going to release them in September?

Which makes me wonder is there something about Intel Arrow Lake that is going to beat AMD or even beat them by a lot maybe even in gaming? If not why would AMD rush to release X3D chips before Arrow Lake is released? They want sales of X3D before Arrow Lake hits in October and ties or beats X3D?

Is there something known we do not know,. Or are they trying to put dagger in Intel by capturing market share early and Intel really will not Conroe like slaughter AMD with Arrow Lake?
AFAIK, this is just an unconfirmed rumor from a single source. If true, it may mean that ARL will be at least competitive. (I havent seen any indications that ARL will decisively beat Zen 5). Otherwise, I would think they would (as in past releases) wait to get as many sales as possible from vanilla Zen 5 before releasing the X3D chips. This is all speculation though. No matter what, it will be a disaster for Intel if Zen 5 X3D chips release before ARL.
 

H433x0n

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AMD and Intel have already released IPC numbers
Sort of. I’d argue neither really provided the data that we care about.

We also have a pretty good idea about clock speeds and power consumption.
Clocks yes, power consumption no.

It will probably be another close race. I'd expect AMD to win in ST and Intel in nT (Skymont looks good). Power use should be closer but I think AMD keeps the advantage there.
What 1T test? The 14900K was ~15% ahead of Zen 4 in a lot of the 1T benchmarks. AMD did provide numbers for a few of them and the ones they provided put Zen 5 on par with 14900K (WebXprt, Speedometer & CB R23). It looks like the 14900K will have a slight lead in WebXprt & Speedometer with Zen 5 potentially getting the win in CB R23 1T.
 
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