News Intel GPUs - Will they actually launch in the West?

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DAPUNISHER

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Another big OOF! Drivers are still a hot mess.



TLDW = Would not start some games. Had to test DX11 or DX12 in others because Vulcan was broken. Menu issues in games, crashing, and a host of issues confirming GN's report.
 

KompuKare

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Will AXG survive Gelsinger’s axe? | Jon Peddie Research

Intel MUST RESIST! They should definitely restructure AXG but not kill it.
"Will AXG survive Gelsinger’s axe? | Jon Peddie Research"
And does Jon Peddie Research have an axe to grind?
We should be told!

This isn't to say that this isn't the kind of questions an analyst should ask, just pointing out that there may be more than one axe involved.
The other pun which springs to mind is whether Gelsinger's metaphorical axe isn't actual an adze in which case he should watch his feet and foundation. And if Intel gets cold feet about GPUs now, the foundations of its future CPUs might be shakey.
 

Tup3x

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Another big OOF! Drivers are still a hot mess.



TLDW = Would not start some games. Had to test DX11 or DX12 in others because Vulcan was broken. Menu issues in games, crashing, and a host of issues confirming GN's report.
Well... Intel already showed Dirt running (well) on Arc with engineering drivers. Things may improve rapidly.

Also it's quite interesting how well it did in Hitman...
 
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DAPUNISHER

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Well... Intel already showed Dirt running (well) on Arc with engineering drivers. Things may improve rapidly.

Also it's quite interesting how well it did in Hitman...
Very odd. Someone should do an image quality analysis odd. Is it a case of us seeing its true potential, or driver cheats?
 
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DrMrLordX

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The real issue I see is that Intel seems to have grown complacent over time and can't seem to get turn their plans into reality as well as the competition. Intel risks to be 2nd rate at manufacturing and 2nd rate at chip design.
Their client CPU designs are still competitive. The problems are in other areas. We don't honestly know if Intel could turn Arc around with Battlemage, and it'd be a shame if they didn't give it a shot. But now the board is feeling vulnerable. They may react badly to something that's clearly contributing to losses in the short term.

But until this quarter there were still profitable.
What's going to bring them back above water? Sapphire Rapids in 2023? Battlemage?
 
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IntelUser2000

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BK years were very profitable. Please don't tell me they get back to that. That thinking is so bad that I have to think it's intentional? Because that will guarantee the demise and maybe that's what you want.

The dGPU gaming market has so much synergy with iGPUs too. It should NOT be abandoned. Are we that really short term focused? One project fails so give up entirely? Then you deserve to fail. By sticking through this "storm"(which is an exaggeration), they will learn to be more than in just CPUs.

Seriously, the entire board at intel should be fired.
Product manager all the way to CEO needs to be replaced.

They took a company which was considered a monopoly into a circus fiasco where learning why Raja is called Raja was more important then actually talking about real launch dates.
Sorry but you are wrong. You were right but not anymore.

Brian Kraznich, the CEO that got Intel in this position became CEO in May 2013, meaning he saw the launch of Haswell, Broadwell, and Skylake. So he did a fantastic job right? BK Forever?

NO.

Because a company as big as Intel takes long time to change direction. Those three had influences of Otellini, who despite his serious issues were far better. In fact in late 2014 the 14nm process got delayed 6+ months. And we know the 10nm fiasco.

Firing Pat and current management would be a big, extremely short sighted mistake. Of course they aren't perfect but the new management is the best chance to turn it around. The risks, despite the costs of failures have to be made.

Starting with Intel 4 we will start to see the effects of the new management. In fact they said 2023 server roadmaps are what they are.

Bad management can make every stage worse. But even stellar ones can't make it much better when there are fixed time needed in parts of development.

The bad board members like Andy Bryant are gone. He was a culprit in why we got mediocre and terrible leaders in the company in the past fifteen years.
 
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jpiniero

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The dGPU gaming market has so much synergy with iGPUs too. It should NOT be abandoned. Are we that really short term focused? One project fails so give up entirely? Then you deserve to fail. By sticking through this "storm"(which is an exaggeration), they will learn to be more than in just CPUs.
It's not just one project. It's that AMD has gotten their act together, which will make it that much harder. And they seemingly are unwilling to fab internally.
 
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guidryp

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It's not just one project. It's that AMD has gotten their act together, which will make it that much harder. And they seemingly are unwilling to fab internally.
Since they are way behind everyone else in GPU, it wouldn't make sense to compound that by using their internal fab which is behind TSMC as well, that compounds the negatives. So using TSMC makes sense until their GPU tech is closer to competitors, and/or their process is closer.

Intel needs GPU technology no matter what going forward, so selling/shuttering the unit is just nonsense.

But it does appear they poured too much money into the GPU unit to try and do too many things simultaneously. IMO they should have slow rolled and just worked on laptop dGPU, and refined that until it was credible, and then branched out to Desktop and Data Center.

Trying to launch everything at once spread them thin and cost MUCH more money. The most important thing is to get the underlying tech working first, and then scale.

I could see them scale back and narrow focus until they get the base technology working better, but I seriously doubt the would just shut down or sell GPU unit.
 

mikk

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It turns out Arc doesn't support DX9 natively, it runs emulated which explains the abysmal performance in DX9 games. What a shame.


12th generation Intel processor's integrated GPU and Arc discrete GPU no longer support D3D9 natively. Applications and games based on DirectX 9 can still work through Microsoft* D3D9On12 interface.
 

mikk

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And by the way it makes it easier for Intel, they can blame issues to Microsoft:


Since D3D9On12 is a mapping layer developed by Microsoft, contact Microsoft Support to report any issues you might find when using D3D9On12.

Who is responsible for this from Intel??? And why didn't Intel share this info earlier?
 

mikk

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Well that's that for DX9 but what about DX11? Even there the performance is... terrible.

Raichu says DX11 isn't emulated, he knew DX9 runs emulated from a whitepaper. If someone has a 12th iGPU he could try DX9 with the Arc driver and regular iGPU driver. Maybe it runs emulated with the Arc driver and doesn't with the regular iGPU driver.

 
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igor_kavinski

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That solves the D3D11 problem for Intel too. How nice of Microsoft to help them slow down old games...

We will have a more serious problem if AMD/Nvidia decide to go with D3D9/11 emulation in their newer gen GPUs too. All of a sudden, GPUs natively supporting D3D9/11 may get expensive.
 
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mikk

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And by the way it makes it easier for Intel, they can blame issues to Microsoft:




Who is responsible for this from Intel??? And why didn't Intel share this info earlier?
They did here:


After troubleshooting this issue, we found the root cause to be on one of Microsoft’s APIs. Basically, Alder Lake (and all Intel CPUs/GPUs onwards) are dropping support for the DirectX 9 API (20-year-old now). So, to address people wanting to play older games only supporting this API, Microsoft created the D3D9on12 translation layer, which basically redirects all DirectX 9 calls to DirectX 12. And for your specific issue on The Witcher Enhanced Edition, the root cause was determined to be a bug on this D3D9on12 translation layer from Microsoft.


We reached out to Microsoft, and they worked and fixed the issue. However, it now falls to Microsoft on when they will roll out the new version of D3D9on12 with the fix. We expect it to be included in the upcoming Windows 11 22H2, but since we don’t control Microsoft’s release schedule, we cannot ensure it.


Since the fix for this issue now depends on a company other than Intel, please let me know if we can close this case.




Any issue related to DX9 is no longer Intels thing, they refer to Microsoft for support :tearsofjoy:

Basically Intel gave up on DX9.


 

moinmoin

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You don't sacrifice your long term future, to make the balance sheet look better in the short term.
Did you just wake up from some eternal slumber? Intel was doing exactly that for years when it was riding out the 14+++++ cacophony due to its excellent profit margins instead investing in new nodes. And Intel still had years to still correct it, still profited of a sudden unexpected PC market growth due to a completely random pandemic, ...but still didn't manage to be prepared ahead for something like the last quarter results.
 
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guidryp

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Did you just wake up from some eternal slumber? Intel was doing exactly that for years when it was riding out the 14+++++ cacophony due to its excellent profit margins instead investing in new nodes. And Intel still had years to still correct it, still profited of a sudden unexpected PC market growth due to a completely random pandemic, ...but still didn't manage to be prepared ahead for something like the last quarter results.
Did you just wake up and forget they have a different CEO now, who seems to be taking steps to fix past mistakes.
 
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Leeea

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It turns out Arc doesn't support DX9 natively, it runs emulated which explains the abysmal performance in DX9 games. What a shame.
For the record, when I was saying Intel should drop features and just make the core driver work, I was NOT referring to dx9.

but rather the fancy gui from the abyss, XeSS, smooth sync, etc.


Yea, I get there is only 16 million people playing guild wars 2 (which is dx9 only), but I suspect gw2 is not the only massive game out there.
 
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DrMrLordX

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TF2 is still DX9 fwiw. It has a DX10 mode but that's a laugh. I don't think it's userbase approaches that of Guild Wars 2, but it's still pretty high on Steam charts for active user base.

Anyway

I'd be more worried about DX11 than DX9. Also MS better darn well not start nerfing performance of DX11 on modern GPUs.
 
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PingSpike

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That solves the D3D11 problem for Intel too. How nice of Microsoft to help them slow down old games...

We will have a more serious problem if AMD/Nvidia decide to go with D3D9/11 emulation in their newer gen GPUs too. All of a sudden, GPUs natively supporting D3D9/11 may get expensive.
Pretty amusing to me that running DX9, DX11 games on linux requires a translation layer and now the same is true of Windows, lol.
 

DrMrLordX

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Pretty amusing to me that running DX9, DX11 games on linux requires a translation layer and now the same is true of Windows, lol.
Well just because it's there doesn't mean developers have to use it. I'm still trying to grasp whether it means the Interop APIs can be used at the driver level or the application level, or both.
 

moinmoin

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Did you just wake up and forget they have a different CEO now, who seems to be taking steps to fix past mistakes.
Do you want to pretend changing the CEO makes it a different company right away? Also this doesn't change the fact Intel seems not to be well prepared for the quarter results even though it was coming visible from far away. Actually it makes it worse since Intel should have done the analysis already as part of the CEO turnover.

Pretty amusing to me that running DX9, DX11 games on linux requires a translation layer and now the same is true of Windows, lol.
It's interesting that those translation layers by Microsoft seem to be going since 2018 already. The Linux efforts are very dedicated by the virtue of having a company strongly interested in good compatibility and performance behind it in Valve. I'm not so sure D3D11On12 and D3D9On12 have the same level of backing (are they even open source to facilitate outside optimizations?).
 
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LightningZ71

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My question in all of this is more related to the iGPU on 11th gen and 12th gen processors. What changed in the iGPU between the 11th and 12th gen that made Intel decide to drop DX9 support on the 12th gen iGPU onwards? In my initial cursory look at the specs on them, it seemed that there was almost nothing changed save for an update to the media block. Given how this change negatively affects performance on older games, many of which are served perfectly fine on Tiger Lake and even Rocket Lake processor iGPUs, on Alder LAke and forward, it makes for a better argument to just stick with Tiger lake processors on mobile.
 

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