Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[Dayman1225]

As per Intels Q4 Earnings call Alderlake Mobile and Desktop will qualify in production in H2'21 - Sapphire Rapids will qualify for production by EOY.

 

[Hulk]

It's CPU package power, why do you think some of us were giving Intel the full flak treatment for?


You are not the type of user who will have any problem keeping power usage under control. It's just a matter of entering BIOS and changing a few power settings to ensure the motherboard adheres to stock TDP or whatever power usage profile you want.

And just so it's perfectly clear: this is an issue related to stock motherboard settings, not stock CPU settings. Here's 4 different Z490 mITX boards running the same 10900K:

View attachment 38148

Two of them obey the stock Intel spec of 125W PL1 and limited time 225W PL2, while the other two don't give a flying flak about any of it and go full throttle.

Using RKL S with a 400W power supply (of great quality such as that Seasonic) is perfectly doable as long as you set both PL1 and PL2 to values that make sense. In the case of your system, if you're no using a dGPU, you'll just limit power to keep thermals in check. Something like 125W PL1 and 150W PL2 with a 30-60 second window should be just fine. (if you're using a smaller air cooler than just go 25W-35W lower on both settings)

Sorry guys. I got a little lazy with my reading.


@coercitiv,

As always thanks for the information. I like my super quiet PC. When I move to the new components I'm going to go with a nice Noctua cooler. I don't mind if the fan spikes up a bit during heavy workloads. My old Seasonic might get a little workout now and then but as you said it should be fine and I can adjust the settings to my liking as far as noise and thermals.

 

[Hougy]

How many die sizes of desktop Comet Lake are there? How many cores do they have?

 

[Gideon]

Sorry guys. I got a little lazy with my reading.


@coercitiv,

As always thanks for the information. I like my super quiet PC. When I move to the new components I'm going to go with a nice Noctua cooler. I don't mind if the fan spikes up a bit during heavy workloads. My old Seasonic might get a little workout now and then but as you said it should be fine and I can adjust the settings to my liking as far as noise and thermals.

If keeping your slient PSU and having a silent machine in general is your main goal, then IMO it makes very little sense to go to Rocket Lake vs Zen 3.

If you'd rather buy Intel, I'd strongly suggest to wait for Alder Lake.

Why?

• We know the PL2 and PL1 targets of Rocket Lake chips (same as Comet Lake)
• We know the performance of RL based on leaks quite well (at least with 90% accuracy).
• Based on these: power efficiency is the only thing where (the otherwise very competitive) Rocket Lake will flat out two times worse than the competition (+- 10%)

AMD's "65W" TDP chips at stock, never-ever draw more than 88W (not in any torture test, not under any power-virus, never)
Likewise AMD's "105W" TDP chips @ stock never-ever draw more than 140W.

(btw that's TDP is easily configurable in bios, should you want less)

This is easily visible in their reviews in graphs for Peak Power:

Spoiler: and Package Power

And that means that every stock benchmark you see in the wild has AMD with those power limits in place, while Intel goes up to ~215W (for 8 cores) or ~265W (for 10 cores) even on their "65W" parts. Indefinitely on most boards.

Bottom line:
In any silent rig where you're able to run a 8-core "65W" Rocket Lake, you'll be able to comfortably run a 16-core "105W" 5950X, while taking less power. That in any part of the voltage curve, under any BIOS-enforced TDP limit or undervolting setup.

TL;DR:
If you want to keep your PSU, I'd heavily recommend you to not get 8-core Rocket Lake. Rather:

• Wait for Alder lake
• Buy Zen 3 (with 2x the cores for any given power-budget)
• Buy a 6-core Rocket Lake (which will draw the same as 12-16 core Zen 3)

If none of these opitons works for you and you're hell bent on getting RL - replace the PSU.

 

[lobz]

As per Intels Q4 Earnings call Alderlake Mobile and Desktop will qualify in production in H2'21 - Sapphire Rapids will qualify for production by EOY.

Yeah well, Ice Lake has been sampling for what, more than a year now? Yet there's still no product on the market. Might not be the best time to brag about Sapphire Rapids already. Then again, it's Intelnwe're talking about, so just add anywhere between 4-8 quarters to what they're saying and you know what to expect.

 

[scineram]

How many die sizes of desktop Comet Lake are there? How many cores do they have?

There is a 10 core die and a 6 core die.

 

[Hulk]

If keeping your slient PSU and having a silent machine in general is your main goal, then IMO it makes very little sense to go to Rocket Lake vs Zen 3.

If you'd rather buy Intel, I'd strongly suggest to wait for Alder Lake.

Why?

• We know the PL2 and PL1 targets of Rocket Lake chips (same as Comet Lake)
• We know the performance of RL based on leaks quite well (at least with 90% accuracy).
• Based on these: power efficiency is the only thing where (the otherwise very competitive) Rocket Lake will flat out two times worse than the competition (+- 10%)

AMD's "65W" TDP chips at stock, never-ever draw more than 88W (not in any torture test, not under any power-virus, never)
Likewise AMD's "105W" TDP chips @ stock never-ever draw more than 140W.

(btw that's TDP is easily configurable in bios, should you want less)

This is easily visible in their reviews in graphs for Peak Power:

Spoiler: and Package Power

And that means that every stock benchmark you see in the wild has AMD with those power limits in place, while Intel goes up to ~215W (for 8 cores) or ~265W (for 10 cores) even on their "65W" parts. Indefinitely on most boards.

Bottom line:
In any silent rig where you're able to run a 8-core "65W" Rocket Lake, you'll be able to comfortably run a 16-core "105W" 5950X, while taking less power. That in any part of the voltage curve, under any BIOS-enforced TDP limit or undervolting setup.

TL;DR:
If you want to keep your PSU, I'd heavily recommend you to not get 8-core Rocket Lake. Rather:

• Wait for Alder lake
• Buy Zen 3 (with 2x the cores for any given power-budget)
• Buy a 6-core Rocket Lake (which will draw the same as 12-16 core Zen 3)

If none of these opitons works for you and you're hell bent on getting RL - replace the PSU.

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I've been running this through my head.
It's hard to ignore the really great performance and efficiency of Zen 3. They seem to pop in and out of stock at my local Microcenter and the next time the 5900X is in I might try to pick one up. If I end up not using it I'd just sell it to someone here just to break even. I wouldn't try to make money on it.

 

[cortexa99]

Why the power consumption has such huge gap between 10600k & 10700k in Anand's review, is it due to 6-core die & 10-core die difference?
I think, stressing Intel's FPU might not be a suitable reference compare to daily usage, power consumption would hike terribly and I don't think it is worth to do so. For decent workload Rocketlake might have same or maybe slightly worse energy efficiency compared to Zen3, I suggest this is tolerable when you use a 100watt+ CPU and possibly 100-200watts GPU in your rig. BUT I also agree Alderlake is much worth waiting cuz Rocketlake yet looks too 'ordinary' or 'mediocre'.......

 

[CP5670]

One thing to note is that in games, these CPUs have much more moderate power usage. I get 200W on my 10700K (5ghz at 1.295v) only in things like Prime95 where you hammer all threads with AVX. Most games only load a few threads down and the power usage is pretty small compared to the video card.

 

[mikk]

Not only for games. My Prime95 temps are 15 degrees higher than with Cinebench R20 loaded on all threads. Prime95 might be good for a stress test but for a power comparison this is not a good idea because it's not a realistic scenario for real workloads and they don't or can't even benchmark it which is another flaw. Same with y-Cruncher, it makes heavy use of AVX and AVX512 instructions. At least one real world scenario should be included, be it Cinebench or X265 etc.

 

[mikk]

Intel rumored to announce 12th Gen Core Alder Lake-S in September - VideoCardz.com

Intel Alder Lake-S in September According to a tweet from Uniko’s Hardware, Intel is now expected to unveil its Alder Lake-S series in September. Intel 11th Gen Core series aka Rocket Lake-S are now expected to debut in March this year. Just six months later, Intel could be showing its Alder...

videocardz.com

Apparently ADL-S is scheduled for September and my guess is ADL-P in October-November.

 

[ondma]

Intel rumored to announce 12th Gen Core Alder Lake-S in September - VideoCardz.com

Intel Alder Lake-S in September According to a tweet from Uniko’s Hardware, Intel is now expected to unveil its Alder Lake-S series in September. Intel 11th Gen Core series aka Rocket Lake-S are now expected to debut in March this year. Just six months later, Intel could be showing its Alder...

videocardz.com

Apparently ADL-S is scheduled for September and my guess is ADL-P in October-November.

It says "unveil" though. Real availability could be later.

 

[Ajay]

Yeah well, Ice Lake has been sampling for what, more than a year now? Yet there's still no product on the market. Might not be the best time to brag about Sapphire Rapids already. Then again, it's Intel we're talking about, so just add anywhere between 4-8 quarters to what they're saying and you know what to expect.

Sadly. With Intel I'm kind of getting to the point of 'wake me up in two years' and I'll see what's what.
**Not really, I'll still be watching this thread for any signs of life.

 

[uzzi38]

Intel rumored to announce 12th Gen Core Alder Lake-S in September - VideoCardz.com

Intel Alder Lake-S in September According to a tweet from Uniko’s Hardware, Intel is now expected to unveil its Alder Lake-S series in September. Intel 11th Gen Core series aka Rocket Lake-S are now expected to debut in March this year. Just six months later, Intel could be showing its Alder...

videocardz.com

Apparently ADL-S is scheduled for September and my guess is ADL-P in October-November.

I wouldn't hold much stock in this rumour.

 

[gdansk]

I wouldn't be surprised. They don't really seem to ship products in quantity near their announcements (anymore? I can't remember if it was always like this).

 

[jpiniero]

I wouldn't be surprised. They don't really seem to ship products in quantity near their announcements (anymore? I can't remember if it was always like this).

Intel usually formally announces (ie: specs and model numbers) when they start shipping to OEMs. It takes the OEMs a month or two from that point to get the computers built and shipped so that's kinda where the lag is. DIY can be quicker than this but still quite a bit of time, Comet Lake was three weeks from the announcement to when reviews were.

 

[mikk]

It says "unveil" though. Real availability could be later.

Original source didn't say unveil.

 

[JM Popaleetus]

To wait for Alder Lake and be an early adopter of DDR5, or go all out with end game DDR4.

Despite being a pig, Rocket Lake does look tempting.

 

[lobz]

Intel rumored to announce 12th Gen Core Alder Lake-S in September - VideoCardz.com

Intel Alder Lake-S in September According to a tweet from Uniko’s Hardware, Intel is now expected to unveil its Alder Lake-S series in September. Intel 11th Gen Core series aka Rocket Lake-S are now expected to debut in March this year. Just six months later, Intel could be showing its Alder...

videocardz.com

Apparently ADL-S is scheduled for September and my guess is ADL-P in October-November.

The same record has been played here a year ago. Back then you guys couls have sworn that RKL comes not even half a year after CML. It's just silly.

 

[Hulk]

There is so much BS out there regarding Rocket Lake performance I've given up trying to analyze it. It was fun for a while but now there is so much conflicting data out there it's just annoying.

I'm guessing Intel will announce, quick preview Alder Lake in the fall and actually release March of 2022.

I'm just going to wait for Ian to give us the facts.

 

[mikk]

I'm guessing Intel will announce, quick preview Alder Lake in the fall and actually release March of 2022.

You will be wrong most likely, they confirmed some days ago volume ramp will start in H2 2021. Also it's a desktop release initially this time and not mobile only which will accelerate it, a standalone CPU release has a faster market ramp. To me it sounds like you and other people are really hoping it will be delayed because in hope for a better AMD. Intel is the first with DDR5 and PCIe5 and the IPC crown will go back to Intel as well most likely, no new core for AMD this year on the other side. AMD supporters desperately hoping for ADL-S delays therefore. Not long ago many of these people called 10nm desktop dead and 10nm never will clock high and things like that.

 

[DrMrLordX]

AMD supporters desperately hoping

The market would be better off if Intel could deliver a competitive product in a timely fashion. You can't honestly tell me you believe everything Intel says though, can you? They haven't even announced SKUs for 8c Tiger Lake-H yet, and you honestly think that Intel's "volume ramp" in "H2 2021" means something like July or August?

"AMD supporters" don't have to "desperately" hope for anything. Intel can screw things up well enough on their own without forum posters cheering on their next failure.

 

[mikk]

The market would be better off if Intel could deliver a competitive product in a timely fashion.

You are correct but this is nothing some fans are hoping for. I mean many of them are so deluded they don't buy Intel products because it's Intel the "evil company", you cannot expect from them to cheer for Intel, they are in hope for more delays.

 

[cortexa99]

I doubt DDR5 availability more than Intel's 10nm yield now. IIRC when DDR4's first release, price seems to be not much expensive than DDR3, correct me if I'm wrong?

Some other things that is worth paying attention is the interconnection/system bus in big+little design, which might greatly affect the latency and windows' thread scheduling. Waiting to see what will Intel do with it.

 

[Ajay]

Not long ago many of these people called 10nm desktop dead and 10nm never will clock high and things like that.

10nm desktop is still dead ATM. Obviously, Intel is having trouble getting good yields even on Tigerlake mobile (it appears Tigerlake desktop is a no go). From the Analyst call transcript on AT, it looks like Intel is finally getting the cost of producing 10nm down. It was killing their margins. They put in a huge and expensive engineering effort the past couple of years to get 10nm to a real HVM level. Likely, they are yielding better an throwing fewer dice into the trash bin saving money their as well. I suspect that a lot of chips were junk because they couldn't hit target frequencies. if Intel isn't playing a bit fast and loose with their info, AdlerLake be a solid desktop CPU, even though the big.little approach is more optimal for mobile. At least ADL-S looks poised to beat Zen4 to the market.

As far as desperately hoping for an AdlerLake delay - I don't know who these people are; that sort of thinking is irrelevant in any case . Intel has spoken in the past of not reaching the goals vis-a-vis the competition till 5nm, which is looking like 2024 - and they will still be behind TSMC in density. Intel has a ton of work to do the get sorted out and it will take time, meanwhile the competition isn't slowing down. This is not a rosy picture for Intel; the facts just don't support that outlook at the present or near future.