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Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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Hulk

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,774
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Wow, 10 cores are faster than 8 in multi threaded benchmarks. Who would ever have thought that.
You do realize, I hope, that RL would have to have 25% higher IPC to equal CL in multi threaded benchmarks.
If that is true then CL 10 core and RL 8 core should have the same multithreaded performance right?
 

Abwx

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2011
9,133
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Looking at those scores @ 5.2Ghz that OCed Rocketlake part cannot match 5800X @ stock :( in those benchmarks (both ST or MT). It is clear that Zen3 has noticeable IPC advantage that +500Mhz clock cannot compensate.
IPC delta in CB R15/R20 is 15/10% in ST and 26/22% in MT.

Zen 3 actual frequencies :


ST and MT scores :


Overall Intel would be still a generation behind if it wasnt their significantly higher frequencies, albeit at the expense of efficency.
 
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Asterox

Senior member
May 15, 2012
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Because they want people to believe that it require 12 Zen 3 cores to match 8 RKL cores, otherwise they would had used a 5800X as comparison since they could had displayed better numbers..
Intel wishes, there will be not a single independent CPU review 8/16 Zen 3 vs 8/16 Rocket Lake.Who needs that comparison, and again "if anyone mentions blue power consumption they will be shot" :relieved:

 

JoeRambo

Senior member
Jun 13, 2013
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I know for sure, noone in my country will be comparing them with 16C 5950X cause they are simply not available here. The rest are trickling in now, months after launch. 5600X is about as rare as RTX3080 :)
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
7,342
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www.teamjuchems.com
I just wish Intel had come to their sense some months/years sooner and that 10th Gen Desktop parts would have be RKL from the jump.

The thing is we need Intel's fab capacity on 14nm through at least 2021, imo, and it would be nice to get the best parts possible on that node. There seems to be little reason - beyond hubris and planning - that Intel could not have done this a year sooner. They had to know even if 7nm was going to be the savior it still might be that they wouldn't have the ability to build out capacity that quickly.

10C was a neat trick but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,302
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Wow, 10 cores are faster than 8 in multi threaded benchmarks. Who would ever have thought that.
You do realize, I hope, that RL would have to have 25% higher IPC to equal CL in multi threaded benchmarks.
More importantly from that video - the gaming results were decidedly lacklustre. Leading Comet Lake by a handful (
And that's with DDR4-3600 memory so the 1:2 style thing the memory controller can do doesn't apply here. Like FCLK that is automatically enabled when mem frequency surpasses 3600MHz RAM.

Personally - and I'm more than happy to discuss this - but from what I've seen of Rocket Lake I'm actually a little disappointed. 2-8% lead over Zen 3 (Intel's official numbers) in games where multiple games where Comet Lake already outperformed Zen 3 isn't enough of a selling point IMO, and the performance in the video just backs up those performance numbers.

At the end of the day, pricing and availability of both RKL and Zen 3 in March is what'll make or break Rocket Lake rather than performance IMO.
 

Hulk

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,774
172
106
No, I said RL would have to have 25% better IPC to reach CL multithreaded performance, which obviously it does not, and which no one expected.
Sorry I read that too fast. Yes that makes perfect sense. 19% won't quite cut it.
 

Hulk

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,774
172
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They could have had a seperate die for the igpu, then use that spare space for two more cores and maybe a bit more pcie lanes/ddr4 channels. I wonder why they did not do that...
It could be that a huge percentage of their sales are Best Buy, Dell, HP, Lenovo and the like and the people they sell to don't really need more than 4 cores (for the most part) let alone 8. We are a pretty small subset of the computing landscape here on this forum. We know better and know how to use the compute!
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,105
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At the end of the day, pricing and availability of both RKL and Zen 3 in March is what'll make or break Rocket Lake rather than performance IMO.
One more factor to consider: stock clocks drop from i9 to i7 to i6. I expect clocks won't drop as severely as they do on TGL, but anything more than 5% might turn things around for both 5800X and 5600X, at least as far as stock configs go.

Based on what we know so far we can safely assume RKL i9 will be the new gaming king, but other than that situation is very fluid. Zen 3 availability isn't nearly as bad as some of our fellow posters from US are tempted to think based on local availability, and we still have 3-4 months to go before RKL shows up in stores.
 

uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
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One more factor to consider: stock clocks drop from i9 to i7 to i6. I expect clocks won't drop as severely as they do on TGL, but anything more than 5% might turn things around for both 5800X and 5600X, at least as far as stock configs go.

Based on what we know so far we can safely assume RKL i9 will be the new gaming king, but other than that situation is very fluid. Zen 3 availability isn't nearly as bad as some of our fellow posters from US are tempted to think based on local availability, and we still have 3-4 months to go before RKL shows up in stores.
Yep, that's another reason why both Intel and AMD's pricing matters.

If AMD drops the price of the 5800X such that it's closer to the 11700K's price, and the 11900K is left to compete with the 5900X, then only the latter will likely have a 1T advantage at all. Rumoured boost clock for the 11700K is 5GHz flat, and that 5% reduction to 1T perf is really enough to change the story altogether
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,379
195
106
Yep, that's another reason why both Intel and AMD's pricing matters.

If AMD drops the price of the 5800X such that it's closer to the 11700K's price, and the 11900K is left to compete with the 5900X, then only the latter will likely have a 1T advantage at all. Rumoured boost clock for the 11700K is 5GHz flat, and that 5% reduction to 1T perf is really enough to change the story altogether
Nah, you can get +/- 5% just by choosing a different motherboard. When you get that close, it doesn't matter to any normal person and other components can shift the winner / loser. I would say anything within 5% is effectively the same, in this case on gaming (11900K vs 5900X).

I get the impression Intel did 11900K vs 5900X comparison because that is the price point they want for 11900K, $550. I would be more interested in the 11700K vs 5800X @$450.

But in the real world, I think the main questions will be one of availability (most important) and price.

>5% difference, same GPU, CPU and RAM, different motherboard - and this is with an old GPU :

1610545722965.png
 
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Kocicak

Senior member
Jan 17, 2019
338
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Is it common to display a name of your competitor with a picture of death symbol close to it? In the press video Intel showed this for 12 seconds.

I mean, arent they afraid to curse themselves or something??? :D

intelskull3.jpg
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,105
4,936
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Is it common to display a name of your competitor with a picture of death symbol close to it? In the press video Intel showed this for 12 seconds.
Is it common for normal people to put skulls on the heads of marketing people from companies they dislike?

What Intel did is pathetic and they deserve being laughed at, but this is not the thread to do it and that modified picture is definitely not the proper message.
 

Hougy

Junior Member
Jan 13, 2021
1
0
6

This is huge if true. I'm happy Intel is doing it.

Does it mean we will see CPUs from TSMC before Intel 7nm?
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,160
2,099
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This is huge if true. I'm happy Intel is doing it.

Does it mean we will see CPUs from TSMC before Intel 7nm?
What an awful click-bait article headline:
headline: "TSMC to Kick off Mass Production of Intel CPUs in 2H21 ..."
content:
Intel has outsourced the production of about 15-20% of its non-CPU chips ...
 

Kocicak

Senior member
Jan 17, 2019
338
213
76
Is it common for normal people to put skulls on the heads of marketing people from companies they dislike?

What Intel did is pathetic and they deserve being laughed at, but this is not the thread to do it and that modified picture is definitely not the proper message.
I actually dislike such symbols of death and deplore current culture, where death, destruction and violence seem to be a norm, especially in all types of media (including computer games).

On the other hand, if you call, you may get a reply.

Dislaying a message, conveying that AMD=death and Intel=headlines for 12 seconds in a video is such a ridiculous thing, that I do not consider my response inappropriate.

They even could have displayed the AMD notebook on a barrel of poison with AMD logo on it, and dress the presenter in blue, add wings and a halo. Angelic Intel against poisonous AMD. Would that be more ridiculous than what they did? It would be pretty comparable IMO.
 
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shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,379
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I actually dislike such symbols of death and deplore current culture, where death, destruction and violence seem to be a norm, especially in all types of media (including computer games).

On the other hand, if you call, you may get a reply.

Dislaying a message, conveying that AMD=death and Intel=headlines for 12 seconds in a video is such a ridiculous thing, that I do not consider my response inappropriate.

They even could have displayed the AMD notebook on a barrel of poison with AMD logo on it, and dress the presenter in blue, add wings and a halo. Angelic Intel against poisonous AMD. Would that be more ridiculous than what they did? It would be pretty comparable IMO.
Lets be real. The mask is something you did. The skull and crossbones are representing a virus attack, and she states that it is normally transparent to a user - they get no such warning. She is illustrating how vPro protects the user. VPro is a real advantage if say, your company handles credit card and personal customer information. Many companies require this type of protection.

Anyone who wants to see the real video can go here and fast forward to 7:05.

The virus pops up on the AMD laptop :

1610555941951.png

On the Intel system, vPro / CET stops the attack :

1610556066263.png

 
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uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,302
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Lets be real. The mask is something you did. The skull and crossbones are representing a virus attack, and she states that it is normally transparent to a user - they get no such warning. She is illustrating how vPro protects the user. VPro is a real advantage if say, your company handles credit card and personal customer information. Many companies require this type of protection.

Anyone who wants to see the real video can go here and fast forward to 7:05.

The virus pops up on the AMD laptop :

View attachment 37755

On the Intel system, vPro / CET stops the attack :

View attachment 37756

AMD have a vPro alternative as a part of Ryzen Pro. Did Intel even mention it or was it totally glossed over?
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
3,313
3,442
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AMD have a vPro alternative as a part of Ryzen Pro. Did Intel even mention it or was it totally glossed over?
Both AMD and Intel have built in malware protection in their pro line of processors. What Intel was demonstrating was a new feature only in Tigerlake pro processors they call CET which prevents control flow hijacking. It still needs to be supported at least at the OS level though and Microsoft has support for it in the build pipeline, not sure when it will hit the mainline release though. The funny thing is that because 10 nm is such a mess, this appears to be a mobile only feature for now as the Xeon line won't have this feature in the upcoming Icelake release and will probably not be seen in the Xeon line until Sapphire Rapids.

Here's a paper covering what it does and does not protect against: https://i.blackhat.com/asia-19/Thu-March-28/bh-asia-Sun-How-to-Survive-the-Hardware-Assisted-Control-Flow-Integrity-Enforcement.pdf

I'm 100% sure AMD will have an equivalent soon, very likely in Zen4 and it will be ubiquitous throughout their pro/enterprise tier processors.

Intel also glossed over the fact that their AMT is absolutely riddled with security holes and bugs.
This is probably a much bigger deal than CET.
 

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