Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[IntelUser2000]

Everything that's not the CPU cores/L3 and the IGP that they want to put. So yeah mostly the memory controller and PCIe but it could be more than that if they want. I'm presuming that you can have Rocket Lake with just CPU only.

Yea, there's going to be no such thing, and the 10/14nm chip will be based on Intel's process, and contain PCIe/iGPU/and the memory controller.

 

[french toast]

The Comet Lake U parts have slightly higher Turbo compared to Whiskeylake so those are probably early samples.

There are zero cache changes so its still based on Skylake.

Oh and BTW, that product brief has been out since Intel revealed Icelake at Computex. So its nothing new.



That doesn't mean they won't use Samsung's 8nm, or 7nm process. It's just saying Intel needs a replacement for their 14nm.

Its still very strange. Are they going to have shortage even with Apple no longer needing their modems? So their chipsets are taking that much of their production?

So the logic of using Samsung for Rocket Lake must be related to volume. They want something better than 14nm, but 10nm capacity is filled up by other chips.

@french toast Renoir is using GFX909, so its a variant of the Vega core. Being on 7nm still has opportunities for big gains though.

That is a shame if true and an opportunity missed.
I heard this rumour a while back along with 7nm shrink of zen+... Which would make sense if they are using vega, still it is a damn shame if any of that is true. Raven Ridge used the latest ip Amd had available at the time... Looks like Renoir won't be afforded the same luxury.
The only thing I would say is Navi is still GCN ISA, for what ever that's worth.

 

[coercitiv]

Rumors.... if anything this is for the chipsets... not cpu.

Intel Not Outsourcing 14nm Rocket Lake CPU Production to Samsung

Rumors that Samsung is deep in negotiations to produce 14nm CPUs for Intel swept the internet this week, but a source close to the matter has confirmed to Tom's Hardware that processors aren't on the negotiating table. Instead, the talks center around simpler devices, likely chipsets, albeit on an unspecified node.

 

[mikk]

I have never believed in this story because Samsungs 14nm is worse to Intels 14nm, if they choose another foundry for some products these products will be frequency non-sensitive like chipsets or some low end stuff.

 

[IntelUser2000]

The only thing I would say is Navi is still GCN ISA, for what ever that's worth.

Completely new architectures haven't been a commercial success. Because of the complexity involved with modern MPUs, I doubt any so-called "grounds-up" architectures are truly grounds up anymore.

AMD is saying its not GCN and Beyond3D guys are saying its a big change. As long as it can break the 64CU limitations and it performs competitively, I don't think ISA matters one iota.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Wasn't expecting Elkhart Lake so soon, although I guess it's strictly for IoT and friends. Guess that explains the work being done on the Linux driver.

If the die is small enough, and they have plenty of markets where they can put mostly defective parts, maybe they can make it work.

Tremont cores are already working in Lakefield. I see no reason why they can't work in Elkhart Lake as well. Also, won't Elkhart Lake take over for uh Gemini Lake in numerous cheap AiO devices?

 

[Dayman1225]

Tremont cores are already working in Lakefield. I see no reason why they can't work in Elkhart Lake as well. Also, won't Elkhart Lake take over for uh Gemini Lake in numerous cheap AiO devices?

It should.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It would be funny if AiO buyers get 10nm chips and DiY desktop buyers don't. Or sad. Not sure which.

 

[LTC8K6]

It would be funny if AiO buyers get 10nm chips and DiY desktop buyers don't. Or sad. Not sure which.

Maybe a market might develop with removal of 10nm chips for resale...

But that's assuming a lot.

 

[DrMrLordX]

If those Elkhart Lake chips perform as well as I think they will, they may be a threat to some of the socketed 2c Sky/Kaby/Coffeelake chips! Hopefully we'll get some benchmarks.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Also, won't Elkhart Lake take over for uh Gemini Lake in numerous cheap AiO devices?

No, Elkhart Lake has features specific for IoT. Skyhawk Lake replaces Gemini Lake.

they may be a threat to some of the socketed 2c Sky/Kaby/Coffeelake chips! Hopefully we'll get some benchmarks.

I'm hoping we'll see a 30-50% perf gain per clock to keep up with latest ARM chips. Gemini Lake was pretty much there on Integer.

 

[DrMrLordX]

No, Elkhart Lake has features specific for IoT. Skyhawk Lake replaces Gemini Lake.

Okay, thanks for the clarification on that. When should we expect Skyhawk Lake to appear on the market?

I'm hoping we'll see a 30-50% perf gain per clock to keep up with latest ARM chips. Gemini Lake was pretty much there on Integer.

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu-intel_pentium_j5005-844

at +30% performance gain, that would put a 4c/4t Skyhawk Lake chip with the same base/boost behavior as a J5005 at a higher Cinebench score than my heavily-overclocked 4.7 Kaveri chip of yesteryear:



It would also put it ahead of the Pentium G4560 (CBR15 MT score of 374):

https://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/1603

I think all of Intel's 2c/4t Core chips would be rendered obsolete in a single swipe.

edit: actually not the i3-7350k because overclocking. But the i3-7320 - only scores 443 in CBR15 MT. It would be vulnerable.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Okay, thanks for the clarification on that. When should we expect Skyhawk Lake to appear on the market?

Both Skyhawk/Elkhart Lake appeared in that old roadmap dating back to 2018(but leaked this year). It should come at the same time. That is, Q1 2020.

Both are pull-ins from that old roadmap, and a good indicator to the positive leadership changes at Intel(BK to Bob Swan). Oftentimes, the changes are seen pretty much immediately.

at +30% performance gain, that would put a 4c/4t Skyhawk Lake chip with the same base/boost behavior as a J5005 at a higher Cinebench score than my heavily-overclocked 4.7 Kaveri chip of yesteryear:

I think all of Intel's 2c/4t Core chips would be rendered obsolete in a single swipe.

I hope to see 50%, which would make Tremont like A76. Intel-wise, that makes it on par with Haswell.

The concerns are very valid, but they have little choice here. Remember how they wanted to keep Atoms 2x from Core in single thread? Well they seemed to have accepted the fact that wasn't sustainable and Gemini Lake is far closer.

Icelake with 15-20% gain will be significantly faster. I'm pretty sure with SKU plays they can manage this somehow. The Y parts are going to be 4 cores with Icelake so that's ok too.

I feel whatever petty back and forth Intel/AMD has between them will again be dwarfed by the threats from the iOS/Android camp. iPadOS seems like a significant challenger to Surface Pros. Especially because Windows 10 is a mess that needs room for significant improvement(desktops) and at the same time a big mess(in tablets and touch devices).

 

[DrMrLordX]

Both Skyhawk/Elkhart Lake appeared in that old roadmap dating back to 2018(but leaked this year). It should come at the same time. That is, Q1 2020.

Both are pull-ins from that old roadmap, and a good indicator to the positive leadership changes at Intel(BK to Bob Swan). Oftentimes, the changes are seen pretty much immediately.

That's a good sign. Maybe not for the high-end desktop and workstation/server users (yet). I wonder if a bunch of little 4c 10nm Atoms could be EMIB/Foveros-ed together into a replacement for Denverton? That would probably require adopting some variant of Intel's current mesh topology. Oh wait, Tanner Ridge and Snow Ridge-NS are going to be slotted in there. Hmm.

I feel whatever petty back and forth Intel/AMD has between them will again be dwarfed by the threats from the iOS/Android camp.

Indeed. Intel needs to be just as worried about them as they do AMD.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Oh wait, Tanner Ridge and Snow Ridge-NS are going to be slotted in there.

Tanner Ridge is a successor to Denverton. Snow Ridge is targeted at wireless base stations and they have no market share at the moment.

Indeed. Intel needs to be just as worried about them as they do AMD.

Pentium Pro killed Alpha's ambitions into the PC space. Bay Trail killed Win RT tablets. Goldmont Plus likely kept intial Win 10 WoA devices from taking off.

It isn't merely compatibility and performance with x86 applications that kept ARM from entering PC space. It was Intel fending off ARM chips using their little cores. Tremont has to continue this for 2020.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Snow Ridge is targeted at wireless base stations and they have no market share at the moment.

Right, it just looks to me like Snow Ridge-NS may feature Atom rather than Core.

 

[jpiniero]

Both Skyhawk/Elkhart Lake appeared in that old roadmap dating back to 2018(but leaked this year). It should come at the same time. That is, Q1 2020.

Can't imagine they would really want to waste any 10 nm resources on Atom client, unless it's just defective Elkhart Lake parts that IoT wouldn't take, and even then I have doubts Intel would be able to offer enough product. I'm assuming of course that the two are using the same CPU die, maybe the PCH is different or something.

So far there haven't been any mention of Skyhawk in the Linux GPU driver; only Elkhart.

 

[ajc9988]

Tanner Ridge is a successor to Denverton. Snow Ridge is targeted at wireless base stations and they have no market share at the moment.



Pentium Pro killed Alpha's ambitions into the PC space. Bay Trail killed Win RT tablets. Goldmont Plus likely kept intial Win 10 WoA devices from taking off.

It isn't merely compatibility and performance with x86 applications that kept ARM from entering PC space. It was Intel fending off ARM chips using their little cores. Tremont has to continue this for 2020.

Well, Intel failed to a degree then as windows based netbooks/notebooks have increased this year due to their shortage and laptop manufacturers choosing arm for battery life over AMD's solution.

This will be compounded as Apple moved to arm and away from Intel for their laptops.

 

[Dayman1225]

Looks like Intel is close to releasing Ice Lake parts.

Product Brief Mobile 10TH Gen Intel® Core™ U-Series and Y-Series Processors (webarchive copy).

Not sure if anyone else pointed this out, but this lists Icelake - Y as a quad core, despite the leaked Dell roadmap saying 2c.

 

[jpiniero]

Not sure if anyone else pointed this out, but this lists Icelake - Y as a quad core, despite the leaked Dell roadmap saying 2c.

Might be the kind of thing where they intend to offer a quad core, but whether it will actually materialize into an actual SKU is another story.

 

[IntelUser2000]

I'm assuming of course that the two are using the same CPU die, maybe the PCH is different or something.

Gemini Lake has PCH on the CPU die.

Intel had 6-7 different dies for Atoms in the 32nm generation. They can easily do this. Their volumes in Atoms are likely far lower too because with Gemini Lake they were introduced with little fanfare. They don't want to draw attention to the fact that Gemini is actually quite competitive with their low end Core chips.

despite the leaked Dell roadmap saying 2c.

What Dell roadmap is that?

Oh that roadmap. So more things may have changed for the better. Again that roadmap was made in 2018, and it was in 2019 rumors started surfacing that 10nm is in a better situation.

 

[birdie]

A patch has been added to the Linux kernel which adds a number of interesting strings:

#define INTEL_FAM6_ICELAKE_X          0x6A
#define INTEL_FAM6_ICELAKE_XEON_D     0x6C
#define INTEL_FAM6_ICELAKE_DESKTOP    0x7D
#define INTEL_FAM6_ICELAKE_MOBILE     0x7E

The code can be found in linux/arch/x86/include/asm/intel-family.h in Linux kernel 5.2-rc6.

 

[beginner99]

A patch has been added to the Linux kernel which adds a number of interesting strings:

#define INTEL_FAM6_ICELAKE_X          0x6A
#define INTEL_FAM6_ICELAKE_XEON_D     0x6C
#define INTEL_FAM6_ICELAKE_DESKTOP    0x7D
#define INTEL_FAM6_ICELAKE_MOBILE     0x7E

The code can be found in linux/arch/x86/include/asm/intel-family.h in Linux kernel 5.2-rc6.

Or:

"Managment: We need creative ideas to make it look like 10nm is finally working"
"Some engineer: Le'ts create fake linux patches about new CPU families. If they never appear, we can just say roadmaps changed."

 

[DrMrLordX]

Ice Lake-X is probably Ice Lake-SP. I would think. Ice Lake Mobile is Ice Lake-U and Y. Ice Lake Xeon-D is a thing, and I'm interested in how that's going to work out for Intel. Considering how good the Broadwell Xeon-D product was, back in the day.

Ice Lake desktop, though? Such a chip doesn't exist on any leaked roadmap.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Forbes reports that Microsoft is planning to release a new 9-inch Foldable Surface with Intel's Lakefield chip.

• Will use Windows 10 OS new version -- WCOS (Windows Core OS) -- for dual display UI (User Interface)
• Adopt Intel 10 nanometer (nm) system-on-a-chip (SOC) Lakefield*
• Run Android Apps and iCloud service in Windows 10
• Always on connectivity function (LTE or 5G)

Early to middle of next year.

So MS being a customer that asked for Lakefield makes sense. Though I think they are mistaken on the Core OS. It should be a full version or its going to fail.