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Intel Cannonlake, Ice Lake, Tiger Lake & Sapphire rapid thread

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jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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People here in the past weeks tried to tell me it's coming in Q1.
Figure they will ship product to OEMs in Q1, not actual devices being available.

Why is that weird? Aside from 5-6 people with very hard-driven goalposts here was able to draw the not-so-difficult conclusion that Charlie Demerjian is right and ICL is practically some marketing SKUs with just enough volume to make every major vendor to create a couple of designs and then that's it.
Until somebody can provide me with the number actual shipped ICL chips, I will believe the one with the best track record yet regarding intel's 10nm: Charlie.
My estimate is something like 65% Whiskey 25% Comet 5% Ice. 5% is still a pretty big number... but if you are willing to burn wafers it's easily achievable even with abysmal yield. It's not like Intel is fabbing much other than Icelake and Lakefield at this point.
 

majord

Senior member
Jul 26, 2015
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She specifically said shipping to OEMs summer this year

Make of that what you will of that vague statement regarding when devices will be available
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
7,453
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I am talking Tiger Lake. My guess it that it will just be the 28 W U and 9 W Y models that replace the MIA Icelake models and branded 10th Gen.

Betcha it will be announced roughly the same time as the 10610U and 10810U.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
6,577
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I am talking Tiger Lake. My guess it that it will just be the 28 W U and 9 W Y models that replace the MIA Icelake models and branded 10th Gen.

Betcha it will be announced roughly the same time as the 10610U and 10810U.
The 28W 1068G7 at least exists in some format. The -Y parts are absolutely nonexistent. One Netbook talk about how Ys are only for MS and Apple is an indication they'll skip ICL-Y for the most part. Maybe we'll see a Surface Go with it?

I don't believe Apple will use ICL-Y.

I read somewhere that they they'll start shipping the 1068G7 soon. Considering how they are still introducing Whiskeylake systems, we might still see it, but it could be in one obscure model sold to a small country or something.

Why they bother with 1068G7 I have no clue. The HP Spectre x360's base mode is 18W, and performance mode is 28W.
 
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lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
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I am talking Tiger Lake. My guess it that it will just be the 28 W U and 9 W Y models that replace the MIA Icelake models and branded 10th Gen.

Betcha it will be announced roughly the same time as the 10610U and 10810U.
Let's make a deal then: you won't shave till intel ship TGL to OEMs. Not fair if you're a hobo or a member of ZZ Top!!! :D :D :D
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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So I would say Icelake's perf/clock gain is 15% than 18%. With the countless number of applications out there, its extremely strange for CPU manufacturers to be specific with the numbers. With Ryzen it was "52%". I mean come on! Just say 50%.

They used to be much more sane and claimed 15-20% instead.

15% seems to be the Integer gain which is what we want to see as a uarch advance. Higher gains are in FP.
 
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csbin

Senior member
Feb 4, 2013
834
338
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4 Cores, 8 Threads Tiger Lake U DDR4 SODIMM RVP

Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS 4.15.0-45-generic x86_64


Single-Core Score: 1309
Multi-Core Score: 3132



"frequencies": [ 3825, 3845, 3828, 3873, 3869, 3817, 3831, 3882, 3881, 3808, 3812, 3874, 3504, 3667, 3719, 3772, 3842, 3788, 3723, 3759, 3735, 3640, 3560, 3792, 3094, 3828, 3647, 3652, 3716, 3741, 3193, 3708, 3770, 3802, 2779, 3757, 3768 ]
 

Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
6,368
1,954
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The write-up I read said that Tiger Lake uses 10+ which is a revision on Ice Lake's 10 (no plus). I think intel is basically just pretending that Cannon Lake and their original 10 nm process never existed at this point.
IIRC, cannon Lake was 10, ICL was 10+. If Tiger Lake is still 10+, it just means Intel hasn’t made any changes to the xtor geometry or materials.

I’m sure Intel is still trying to reduce defect density. Amongst other issues, SAQP just sucks. It requires more masks, multiple lighting techniques, more litho steps and creates too much geometric variation that results in too many defective circuits to salvage the CPUs.
 

uzzi38

Senior member
Oct 16, 2019
531
506
96

4 Cores, 8 Threads Tiger Lake U DDR4 SODIMM RVP

Ubuntu 16.04.6 LTS 4.15.0-45-generic x86_64


Single-Core Score: 1309
Multi-Core Score: 3132



"frequencies": [ 3825, 3845, 3828, 3873, 3869, 3817, 3831, 3882, 3881, 3808, 3812, 3874, 3504, 3667, 3719, 3772, 3842, 3788, 3723, 3759, 3735, 3640, 3560, 3792, 3094, 3828, 3647, 3652, 3716, 3741, 3193, 3708, 3770, 3802, 2779, 3757, 3768 ]
Effectively same IPC as ICL-U. Use Linux scores like this: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/941452.gb5 for comparison.

Also, GB5 on Linux reports ST Turbo as base frequency, the .gb5 shows the true base of 1.8GHz. This is probably 15W config.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
14,607
3,584
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Effectively same IPC as ICL-U.
. . . hmm. Didn't Intel already hint at that? Something about Sunny Cove and Golden Cove being the uarch steps that brought IPC gains while Willow Cove was more focused on restructing cache?
 

uzzi38

Senior member
Oct 16, 2019
531
506
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. . . hmm. Didn't Intel already hint at that? Something about Sunny Cove and Golden Cove being the uarch steps that brought IPC gains while Willow Cove was more focused on restructing cache?
Yes, but from what we've seen that cache restructure has been, for the most part, a very notable cache bump. So many people were expecting upto a 10% IPC uplift.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
14,607
3,584
136
Yes, but from what we've seen that cache restructure has been, for the most part, a very notable cache bump. So many people were expecting upto a 10% IPC uplift.
Might be that Geekbench just isn't responding well to the larger cache.
 

uzzi38

Senior member
Oct 16, 2019
531
506
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Might be that Geekbench just isn't responding well to the larger cache.
GeekBench traditionally does benefit from better memory latency afaik, though with 5 it doesn't have it's own test. By extension, the effect of the cache should be present too.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
14,607
3,584
136
GeekBench traditionally does benefit from better memory latency afaik, though with 5 it doesn't have it's own test. By extension, the effect of the cache should be present too.
Maybe we'll see more effects in AVX512 benchmarks?

@csbin

That second comparison is weirdly bad for the reference Tiger Lake system. I wonder if the Dell system is running faster RAM? Or is it a case of dual channel vs single channel?
 

csbin

Senior member
Feb 4, 2013
834
338
136
Maybe we'll see more effects in AVX512 benchmarks?

@csbin

That second comparison is weirdly bad for the reference Tiger Lake system. I wonder if the Dell system is running faster RAM? Or is it a case of dual channel vs single channel?

Dell running LPDDR4X 3733Mhz
reference Tiger Lake system 2666/3200?
 

mikk

Platinum Member
May 15, 2012
2,631
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. . . hmm. Didn't Intel already hint at that? Something about Sunny Cove and Golden Cove being the uarch steps that brought IPC gains while Willow Cove was more focused on restructing cache?

It's a stepping 0 Tigerlake and only Geekbench, way too early for such analysis. In this test the MT score is very low, there are better TGL scores on Geekbench.
In fact all of the leaks are stepping 0 based beside the zhihu ES2 leak with the 5-8% IPC uplift claim. 1.8 Ghz base is really good for stepping 0 if it's a 15W model.
 

tamz_msc

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2017
2,443
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It's a stepping 0 Tigerlake and only Geekbench, way too early for such analysis. In this test the MT score is very low, there are better TGL scores on Geekbench.
In fact all of the leaks are stepping 0 based beside the zhihu ES2 leak with the 5-8% IPC uplift claim. 1.8 Ghz base is really good for stepping 0 if it's a 15W model.
I've never heard about PPC increasing with a CPU stepping, unless there were errata on the older stepping which is fixed by the newer stepping. Based on the leaks till now ICL-U PPC = TGL-U PPC.
 
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mikk

Platinum Member
May 15, 2012
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I've never heard about PPC increasing with a CPU stepping, unless there were errata on the older stepping which is fixed by the newer stepping. Based on the leaks till now ICL-U PPC = TGL-U PPC.

I'm talking about bugs, bios and software optimizations, misconfigurations, different TDP etc, everything is unknown. The MT score of this entry is a good example, there is no explanation why this sample scores 1000 points higher. We don't even have an accurate frequency log.


So here Tigerlake has a better IPC, there is only one big outlier for Tigerlake. This Tigerlake sample scores 81% higher in the HDR subtest! This alone proves my point.
 

tamz_msc

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2017
2,443
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I'm talking about bugs, bios and software optimizations, misconfigurations, different TDP etc, everything is unknown. The MT score of this entry is a good example, there is no explanation why this sample scores 1000 points higher. We don't even have an accurate frequency log.


So here Tigerlake has a better IPC, there is only one big outlier for Tigerlake. This Tigerlake sample scores 81% higher in the HDR subtest! This alone proves my point.
Any discrepancy between different runs in Geekbench is almost always due to whether or not it was a clean run. Background processes, Windows doing its own thing etc. all bring down the multi-thread score. The single-thread score however is more consistent across various runs. As for the HDR subtest being 81% faster, it could be down to missing instruction support, which could be a BIOS issue.

However, since all the TGL-U leaks we have right now are Geekbench runs, except for the one which leaked earlier with a 400 MHz clock, there is no indication till now that PPC has increased from ICL-U.
 

uzzi38

Senior member
Oct 16, 2019
531
506
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I'm talking about bugs, bios and software optimizations, misconfigurations, different TDP etc, everything is unknown. The MT score of this entry is a good example, there is no explanation why this sample scores 1000 points higher. We don't even have an accurate frequency log.


So here Tigerlake has a better IPC, there is only one big outlier for Tigerlake. This Tigerlake sample scores 81% higher in the HDR subtest! This alone proves my point.
Comparing across different OSes is never a good idea with Geekbench. The results get weird.
Stick to same OS and also, apparently Geekbench 5.1 changed the scoring system ever so slightly, so don't use anything of the Geekbench 5.0.x versions either.

Also, use the ST scores. The clocks in the .gb5 are most definitely the ST clocks of this chip in particular.
 
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lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
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. . . hmm. Didn't Intel already hint at that? Something about Sunny Cove and Golden Cove being the uarch steps that brought IPC gains while Willow Cove was more focused on restructing cache?
At least 5 users here state it daily that Willow is a 8% increase over ICL and use that as a seemingly unquestionable proof that Zen 3 will have lower IPC than the current intel CPU when it comes out.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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Effectively same IPC as ICL-U. Use Linux scores like this: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/941452.gb5 for comparison.

Also, GB5 on Linux reports ST Turbo as base frequency, the .gb5 shows the true base of 1.8GHz. This is probably 15W config.
Do I need to remind you people of the futility of comparing using user submitted benchmarks?

There's a XPS 13 Icelake score that gets 553/1560 points using the same OS version but its running at 2600MHz. According to that, one 1065G7 is 76% faster per clock than the other 1065G7 in the same system!


Same compilers too. And they are submitted 3 within days of each other. Intel does lot of Linux work and might be doing testing based on it.

I'm talking about bugs, bios and software optimizations, misconfigurations, different TDP etc, everything is unknown. The MT score of this entry is a good example, there is no explanation why this sample scores 1000 points higher.
Linux is faster for Icelake in ST but slower in MT according to the results. It's same with Tigerlake.

We're not seeing Tigerlake with the latest Ubuntu 19 version. Tigerlake is on Ubuntu 16. The top 1065G7 results are all using Ubuntu 19.

And by the way, Geekbench has absolutely no way to sort. Horrible.
 
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