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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Essentially this has been the outcome, but I think there are factors that have influenced what you call retreat which could be called the cultivation of expectations by companies that wish to maximize engagement. We're being conditioned to being surrounded by points of view (and products, and people, etc.) which jive with how we think and who we are. This tends to make dissenting views all the more jarring and antagonistic when they are experienced close up inside the bubble (coming from another forum member, for example) instead of from outside the group. expressed by the "other."
"We're being conditioned to" is where your problem lies. You are still discussing an effect without addressing its cause. What exactly is conditioning us now more than say 35 years ago? We once had a shared basic reality in this country. We tended to agree as to the facts on the ground, but formed different opinions and conclusions based on those facts. Now, we no longer agree on the facts. It's pretty obvious why that is, and it started back in the 80's even before the internet. Can you tell me what you think it is?
 
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crashtech

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2013
9,512
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@woolfe9998 I am content with identifying an effect without feeling compelled to enumerate what I think the causes are, although a more careful reading of what I have already posted might give you some answers. Leading your response to me by saying I have a problem doesn't particularly encourage me to discuss anything with you though, especially since it's OT here. Maybe some other time.
 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,013
599
136
This is an example of posting in bad faith. It characterizes all liberals as fanatics and adds a straw man: anyone who disagrees with a liberal will be judged as posting in bad faith. It's a nice tidy little bubble where a conservative can say anything, no matter how retarded, and if someone calls them out on their moronic statement, the conservative can just hand-wave away all criticism, no matter how valid, as the ravings of a fanatic who just doesn't want to hear an opposing viewpoint.
Where did I mention liberals?

Are you projecting because you think so many liberals have become deranged fanatics?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
32,814
2,753
126
Where did I mention liberals?

Are you projecting because you think so many liberals have become deranged fanatics?
ude chill!! It was an example...…..you could mhave also played insert whatever in the blank...
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
10,943
5,115
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@woolfe9998 I am content with identifying an effect without feeling compelled to enumerate what I think the causes are, although a more careful reading of what I have already posted might give you some answers. Leading your response to me by saying I have a problem doesn't particularly encourage me to discuss anything with you though, especially since it's OT here. Maybe some other time.
I said there was a problem with your argument, which is that you are addressing an effect but not the root cause. You obviously do not want to take the discussion any deeper for whatever reason, so I'll let it go. But FYI, if it was so OT then you should not have posted about the topic several times.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,025
571
126
posting in good faith means posting honestly, sincerely and without insulting others due to their points of view. I would add integrity as well.
I'd also add "posting with an open mind" because if your mind is made up and you are not open to changing it then you are not discussing an issue, you are proselytizing. You aren't looking for the truth, you are looking for excuses to believe what you want to believe in spite of the truth.
I'm focused on the honesty aspect.

So do I understand correctly: If a person insists they're sincere and honest in an argument devoid of personal attacks or insults, that's the end of it?
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
32,814
2,753
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I'm focused on the honesty aspect.

So do I understand correctly: If a person insists they're sincere and honest in their argument, that's the end of it?
I would say that person needs to provide proof to support their honesty! because it is possible to believe that you are right and be totally wrong....
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,025
571
126
I would say that person needs to provide proof to support their honesty! because it is possible to believe that you are right and be totally wrong....
How could I prove to you that I'm being honest in my present line of questioning, except to say you just have to trust my word?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
32,814
2,753
126
How could I prove to you that I'm being honest in my present line of questioning, except to say you just have to trust my word?
I guess if I interpret what has been said in this huge thread previously -- just because you inrterpret something different than somebody else, everything through posting links and facts will get settled eventually!
I believe it has been discussed that if after somebody proves that your belief is wrong and you keep posting that belief then it could under some circumstanced be infractionable.....
Yet I am sure when it comes to such topics as religion, since "supposedly" it cannot be proven iether way that there is or is not a God, then IMO you will just have a lot of circular discussions on a certain subject..lol
 
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Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
26,552
4,145
126
How could I prove to you that I'm being honest in my present line of questioning, except to say you just have to trust my word?
be able to admit you may be wrong. Too many argue believing they are right no matter what. The ability to admit being wrong is something to be applauded. It shows maturity and integrity.
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,025
571
126
be able to admit you may be wrong. Too many argue believing they are right no matter what. The ability to admit being wrong is something to be applauded. It shows maturity and integrity.
Yes it's mature to admit if you think you are wrong, but that's not the point. If I honestly believe my own argument and honestly believe I'm right, is that enough to protect me from accusations of not arguing in good faith?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
27,189
6,731
136
Yes it's mature to admit if you think you are wrong, but that's not the point. If I honestly believe my own argument and honestly believe I'm right, is that enough to protect me from accusations of not arguing in good faith?
If telling the truth is going to be difficult for you or accepting facts that contradict your beliefs then posting on a public forum probably isn’t a smart idea.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
32,814
2,753
126
Yes it's mature to admit if you think you are wrong, but that's not the point. If I honestly believe my own argument and honestly believe I'm right, is that enough to protect me from accusations of not arguing in good faith?
lets take this a step further -- If you honestly believe your own argument then it should be a simple thing to support your belief via links.....shouldn`t it??
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,097
481
136
Arguing in good faith is:
  1. You don't intentionally straw man your opponent.
  2. Bonus points if you steel man him.
  3. You don't argue things that you know are wrong.
  4. You don't purposefully omit data that harms your argument.
  5. You don't omit known weaknesses of your argument, you state them.
  6. Any point that your opponent makes that is difficult to respond to, you do. You don't just cherry pick the low hanging fruit.
That last one is especially difficult for people.

But good faith/bad faith isn't a binary thing, it's a continuum. There are some obvious exemplars on either end, but most fall somewhere in the middle, more towards the bad faith end of the spectrum.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,025
571
126
Arguing in good faith is:
  1. You don't intentionally straw man your opponent.
  2. Bonus points if you steel man him.
  3. You don't argue things that you know are wrong.
  4. You don't purposefully omit data that harms your argument.
  5. You don't omit known weaknesses of your argument, you state them.
  6. Any point that your opponent makes that is difficult to respond to, you do. You don't just cherry pick the low hanging fruit.
That last one is especially difficult for people.

But good faith/bad faith isn't a binary thing, it's a continuum. There are some obvious exemplars on either end, but most fall somewhere in the middle, more towards the bad faith end of the spectrum.
I'd say that exemplifies characteristics of an argument made by a mature and fair-minded person. But if "bad faith argument" is to be a bannable or vacation-able offense, then surely every post we make can't be subjected to such high standards.

Is it a bannable or vacation-able offense?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
32,814
2,753
126
lets take this a step further -- If you honestly believe your own argument then it should be a simple thing to support your belief via links.....shouldn`t it??
You want a YES or No answer? You ask the question -- If I honestly believe my own argument and honestly believe I'm right, is that enough to protect me from accusations of not arguing in good faith? I would say that the answer is NO!! Now we can expand the answer -- because if the other 99 people responding in the thread using links to support their arguments and you have only -- well I believe and cannot support your belief........
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
10,943
5,115
136
I guess if I interpret what has been said in this huge thread previously -- just because you inrterpret something different than somebody else, everything through posting links and facts will get settled eventually!
I believe it has been discussed that if after somebody proves that your belief is wrong and you keep posting that belief then it could under some circumstanced be infractionable.....
Yet I am sure when it comes to such topics as religion, since "supposedly" it cannot be proven iether way that there is or is not a God, then IMO you will just have a lot of circular discussions on a certain subject..lol
No, not "beliefs." Beliefs can too easily be confused with opinions. We're talking about misstating FACTS, and doing so repeatedly after it has been shown over and over again that you've gotten your FACTS wrong. That is all. It's a very narrow rule.

I'm beginning to think that there is limited understanding of this rule by many people here.
 

imported_tajmahal

Diamond Member
Jul 9, 2009
8,957
974
136
No, not "beliefs." Beliefs can too easily be confused with opinions. We're talking about misstating FACTS, and doing so repeatedly after it has been shown over and over again that you've gotten your FACTS wrong. That is all. It's a very narrow rule.

I'm beginning to think that there is limited understanding of this rule by many people here.
It's an absolute FACT that human life begins at conception. Any argument otherwise is in obvious bad faith.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
25,706
5,291
136
Where did I mention liberals?

Are you projecting because you think so many liberals have become deranged fanatics?
No. I've just noticed that the new hotness among conservatives, especially Trump supporters, is to call the left "fanatics." I think that would be the real projection, considering the number of people who attend Trump rallies.
 
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CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,013
599
136
No. I've just noticed that the new hotness among conservatives, especially Trump supporters, is to call the left "fanatics." I think that would be the real projection, considering the number of people who attend Trump rallies.
Who knows if that is accurate or not, but the fact remains that I never mentioned "liberals" and you seem to fancy yourself as some kind of mind reader.

You appear to lack self-awareness.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
32,814
2,753
126
Who knows if that is accurate or not, but the fact remains that I never mentioned "liberals" and you seem to fancy yourself as some kind of mind reader.

You appear to lack self-awareness.
Sometimes what you don`t say, is as telling as what you do say...
 
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