• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Announcement Insults and Personal Attacks No Longer Allowed!

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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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In order to be in compliance with recent EU regulations an as yet unadopted EU white paper, posters in P&N will no longer be allowed to levy ad hominems or any sort of personal attacks against another poster. As jpishgar, our maximum overseer, has outlined in his announcement right below this one, "You may attack the message, but not the messenger."

For the next 30 days from today, 9/30/19 , any contravention of this rule will be highlighted right in the offending post, but no formal sanction save a zero point warning (for bookkeeping purposes) will apply. But from day 31 on, no slack will be given.

Don't know what jpishgar meant by DH0 or DH1? I confess, I didn't either! Luckily, famous cartoon character Calvin is here to explain.

At this point, you may wish to ask, "Perk, why are you issuing this entirely redundant announcement?"Shut yer festering gob, you brain damaged twit. <--- A prime example of what is no longer allowed!

A better, more compliant response would be that I well know all too many posters never read beyond the headline, so I wished to proffer an announcement in which the title itself delivered the message. Our overseers have graciously allowed this. But the absolute best answer is that I'm just that kind of guy. I care, fellow political pilgrims, I care. ;)

Feel free to comment in a respectful manner in this post.

So, welcome to our brave new P&N world of comity and civility, a world that would make Miss Manners herself proud. Now drop and give me twenty.
 
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Would “Don’t be stupid” or “you are being retarded” be a personal attack?

Is the EU a person could I say “FU EU!”?
 

Perknose

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Would “Don’t be stupid” or “you are being retarded” be a personal attack?
Yes, of course.

Is the EU a person could I say “FU EU!”?
No, you cannot. Furthermore, a flip response like this is unwelcome in this working thread. Do not repeat.
 
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Yes, of course.

No, you cannot. Furthermore, a flip response like this is unwelcome in this working thread. Do not repeat.
Going to take some effort but I should be capable of transition from “you are being xx...” to “your message is xx...”

How about the subject of the discussion, as in not a poster. Let’s pretend some guy is in the news supporting something disgusting like putting children in cages. The guy who suggested putting kids in cages is not on the forum.
Another grey area will be some story about a white power guy, would calling him a Nazi be a personal attack?
 
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Yes, of course.

No, you cannot. Furthermore, a flip response like this is unwelcome in this working thread. Do not repeat.
So basically if I'm catching this right, "You're fucking retarded" will now become "Your idea is fucking retarded" and that falls in line?



EDIT: Basically what he said?

Going to take some effort but I should be capable of transition from “you are being xx...” to “your message is xx...”
 
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Also how about a post such as... Oh I don't know - "#FuckOffTroll" ? Or just accusing someone of being a troll?
 

pmv

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Not saying it's a bad rule, especially as far as it relates to obvious insults and abuse, but I do wonder where the line is when you have posters who start threads or make posts where they are the subject.

One can avoid being _abusive_, absolutely, but can you really avoid discussing the politics and demographic categories of the poster, when responding to something they are saying about themselves?
 

Perknose

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Going to take some effort but I should be capable of transition from “you are being xx...” to “your message is xx...”

How about the subject of the discussion, as in not a poster. Let’s pretend some guy is in the news supporting something disgusting like putting children in cages. The guy who suggested putting kids in cages is not on the forum.
Another grey area will be some story about a white power guy, would calling him a Nazi be a personal attack?
Bear with us, as this is all terra incognito to us as well. Provisionally, I think "your message is xx" is also a personal attack, and therefore not allowed.

As for a third party, not a poster, who is quoted, I . . . believe . . . it would be ok to "call him a Nazi." But I could be wrong. Paging @jpishgar, @SHaines

So basically if I'm catching this right, "You're fucking retarded" will now become "Your idea is fucking retarded" and that falls in line?

First of all, you have been told time and time again NOT to use the outdated and offensive word "retarded" as an attack epithet on these forums. Let this be the very last time you type those words here, or you will be infracted.

As for the latter, see above. Provisionally, I . . . believe . . . the inclusion of "Your" constitutes a personal attack.



EDIT: Basically what he said?
 

Perknose

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Also how about a post such as... Oh I don't know - "#FuckOffTroll" ? Or just accusing someone of being a troll?
Obviously not now permitted. Keep in mind, I requested respectful comments.
 
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Not saying it's a bad rule, especially as far as it relates to obvious insults and abuse, but I do wonder where the line is when you have posters who start threads where they are the subject.

For example the one currently announcing they are no longer a Trump supporter. It's hard to respond to that without pointing at their posting history and musing about what that says about them and the degree to which one believes the claim or believes it matters if it is true. How do you avoid saying things about the person, when the thread is actually about them?

One can avoid being _abusive_, absolutely, but can you really avoid discussing the politics and demographic categories of the poster, when responding to something they are saying about themselves?
Got a feeling this is going to be a case by case thing and we know it’s wrong when we see it.
I’m an American and I don’t like this rule however I can respect it’s a private space and owner sets the rules.
Regarding the post in question we could all use the search feature and ask what has changed between then and now.
I do worry about this rule giving trolls particularly paid trolls a lot more leeway regarding posting stuff that is false or outright designed to make us bicker. Most of their stuff skirts the insult rule. Look at the Russian memes from last election.
 

Perknose

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Not saying it's a bad rule, especially as far as it relates to obvious insults and abuse, but I do wonder where the line is when you have posters who start threads or make posts where they are the subject.

One can avoid being _abusive_, absolutely, but can you really avoid discussing the politics and demographic categories of the poster, when responding to something they are saying about themselves?
We are entering this brave new world together. Hence the one month interregnum.
 
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Bear with us, as this is all terra incognito to us as well. Provisionally, I think "your message is xx" is also a personal attack, and therefore not allowed.

As for a third party, not a poster, who is quoted, I . . . believe . . . it would be ok to "call him a Nazi." But I could be wrong. Paging @jpishgar, @SHaines
“This message is...xx...” or “I don’t know any xxhead who would believe this”
 
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I think we will need some sort of list, even a partial list of words the typically would be considered an insult and list of words that would not be an insult.
As we see on these forums, some posters will not accept reality. Would saying someone like this is:
Being obtuse
Being uneducated
Being fearful/afraid
Not being realistic
Being lazy
Being silly
Acting dumb
Being Partisan

Part of me says the emotional references would be okay because they are emotions we all have them in various degrees.

Simple example let’s say a poster creates a the world is flat thread, denies all science, all satellite images, denies picture showing earths curves from mountain tops. How would one respond without there being some form of insult.
**look at any flat Eather’s website for examples of the above**
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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I think we will need some sort of list, even a partial list of words the typically would be considered an insult and list of words that would not be an insult.
As we see on these forums, some posters will not accept reality. Would saying someone like this is:
Being obtuse
Being uneducated
Being fearful/afraid
Not being realistic
Being lazy
Being silly
Acting dumb
Being Partisan
As I understand it, NONE of these are acceptable to the extent you direct them to the poster. @jpishgar's directive was distinct and clear, "Attack the message, not the messenger."
 

Ajay

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Jan 8, 2001
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Part of me says the emotional references would be okay because they are emotions we all have them in various degrees.
It strikes me that you know what your emotions are, but, on an online forum, you don't usually know what the other person's emotions really are (unless they say so; "I am angry").
 
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As I understand it, NONE of these are acceptable to the extent you direct them to the poster. @jpishgar's directive was distinct and clear, "Attack the message, not the messenger."
May I suggest mods & corporate get more aggressive about banning trouble accounts. Troll accounts will care not about responses particularly responses that require thought or effort and continue to post false information, pictures and video to increase their search results.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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May I suggest mods & corporate get more aggressive about banning trouble accounts. Troll accounts will care not about responses particularly responses that require thought or effort and continue to post false information, pictures and video to increase their search results.
Consider your suggestion suggested. However, it is a slippery slope to brand someone you disagree with, even if you think their "proof" is bogus, as a deliberate, paid troll.
 
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It strikes me that you know what your emotions are, but, on an online forum, you don't usually know what the other person's emotions really are (unless they say so; "I am angry").
We can all interpret them to a certain extent. For example it would be fair for you to say “Meat you appear to be afraid of this rule change” involves an emotion but it’s fairly factual based upon my posts.
 

Ajay

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We can all interpret them to a certain extent. For example it would be fair for you to say “Meat you appear to be afraid of this rule change” involves an emotion but it’s fairly factual based upon my posts.
There is a difference between "you are being fearful", versus "it appears you are afraid". The former is foisting your interpretation onto the poster, the latter is suggesting that an emotion is playing a role.
 

BoomerD

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Feb 26, 2006
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Hoo boy....dis gun be gud.

In many ways, EU regulations aside, (wut dem EU'r regs got to do wif me, I ar 'Murican?) this is long overdue. IMO, it's carried a bit too far, as nowhere on Earth is COMPLETELY "insult-free," but still...
I second the above comment about doing something to get rid of the posters who seem to be obvious troll accounts.
 
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