Indian kicked USAF a$$

SONYFX

Senior member
May 14, 2003
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Wednesday, February 25, 2004 (Gwalior):

India and America today finished a joint Air Force exercise in Gwalior in, which the top pilots from the two countries matched their skills against each other.

While the all-powerful US Air Force had an easy run in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Indian top guns amazingly shot them out of the sky.

"They did very well, it's a very good group of pilots, a very good aircraft and overall I've been very impressed with the Indian Air Force," said Captain Dave Skalicky, US 19 Squadron.
Americans outflown

For the last ten days, five American F-15s have been faced off against Indian Sukhoi-30s, Mirage 2000s and MiG-21s in the skies above Gwalior.

NDTV has learned that the Indian flyers have out flown the Americans, right through the exercise.

On the first day all four American planes were shot down. Never once did the Indians come off second.

Amongst the American flyers, there is clearly respect for the Indians.

"They performed very well. I think in most cases they were equal to us, superior in some aspects. So it was a very good learning experience for both sides. It was a very tough scenario on all days, the pilot skill levels were also equal a lot of times. It felt like we were fighting ourselves, when we were fighting the Indian Air Force guys," said Captain Vogel, US 19 Squadron


 

SONYFX

Senior member
May 14, 2003
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Indian jets, US F-15s stage mock dogfight

GWALIOR, Feb 25: American F-15 fighter planes and Indian jets fought a mock battle over this central Indian city on Wednesday as the curtain fell on the first-ever joint aerial exercises between the two nations who were on opposite sides during the Cold War.

The 10-day war games, codenamed "Cope India 2004", signalled a new level of military cooperation between India and the United States, its largest trading partner. The Indian Air Force (IAF), the world's fourth largest, said it was a close match for the United States Air Force (USAF).

"The USAF is very advanced but at a tactical level, we are a flying match. In air-to-air and in beyond-visual-range combat, however, the Americans have lots of experience and so we are learning from them," said IAF Air Marshal Ajit Bhavnani in Gwalior.

"In the same way they are learning from us because we have completely different equipment," Mr Bhavnani said, declining to give the results of the dogfight in which the four F-15s were "defenders" and IAF's Russian-built Sukhoi-30s and French Mirage-2000 were the attackers.

Colonel Greg Neubeck, team leader of the F-15 squadron, appeared satisfied. "We leave here with a good idea how each other's air forces operate. We consider the IAF as very professional," the fighter pilot said as supersonic aircraft streaked across Gwalior.

The war games, which covered an area from India's Gangetic plains to the rarified atmosphere of the Himalayas, had been gruelling, said IAF spokesman Group Captain S.B.P. Sinha.

"A number of missions have been flown during the exercise and the result has been very encouraging and rewarding," said Mr Sinha. -AFP
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
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Heh, there's an annual Canada vs US air force thing like this. Something like 3 or 4 US teams and one Canadian team. I can't remember the last time the Canadians lost :p
 

ITJunkie

Platinum Member
Apr 17, 2003
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www.techange.com
Originally posted by: virtueixi
That sucks. How much more do our planes cost anyway?

It's not the planes but the pilots. Personally I think the American Pilots are too arrogant and could use a few more bites of humble pie.

"I think in most cases they were equal to us, superior in some aspects."

Hmmm...let's see. Indian Pilots kicked your ass and the best you can say is "superior in some aspects". Here's an idea let's switch planes and see what happens. My guess is they would probably kick our ass even worse.

Let the flames begin....
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
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Not to take away from the Indian pilots but the F-15 is a pretty old aircraft design and not too well suited for dog fighting. I believe all three of those IAF aircraft are more maneuverable than the F-15.

Consider an F-16 or a F-18 and you have an entirely different ball game...I wouldn't be fair. But I think that was the point of excercise...match F-15 pilots against more manneuverable opponents and the IAF wanted to gauge their long range ATA capability vs. F-15's.
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
11,169
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So what? India is using old technology from the Soviet era and has spent 18 years and failed to build even a basic jet, with comparable armaments and electronics to the mirage 2000 (which is a 70s-era fighter) in-house. We have companies like Lockheed putting the final touches on F-22s. Plus, India lacks anywhere near the battlefield communications or AWACS technology we have. Their missiles are inferior to our AIM120C AMRAAMs in every single way.

And finally, Mirage 2000s and MIG-21s are absolutely, positively no match for the F-15s. The SU-30s MAYBE in a dogfight but not in avionics, and that's what matters. The mig-21s are from the 60s! The Mig-21s and Mirage 2000s are competitors to the F4 Phantom-era planes, and not F-15s, and especially not their replacement, F22s.

If you think for a second any modern air battle involving US forces would be less than 30 miles, you are kidding yourself. Who gives a sh!t about dogfighting abilities when F15s and F22s can fire an AMRAAM (the F22 under complete stealth by the way) and blow you out of the air before you knew you were targeted?

The indian air force is still a joke, regardless of the propoganda you are fed.
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
11,169
1
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Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Not to take away from the Indian pilots but the F-15 is a pretty old aircraft design and not too well suited for dog fighting. I believe all three of those IAF aircraft are more maneuverable than the F-15.

Consider an F-16 or a F-18 and you have an entirely different ball game...I wouldn't be fair. But I think that was the point of excercise...match F-15 pilots against more manneuverable opponents and the IAF wanted to gauge their long range ATA capability vs. F-15's.

It would never be a dogfight. The planes we are building now and have been for 20 years are not dogfighters, they target 40 miles away and obliterate targets under complete stealth.

NOTHING else in the world comes close. Even the Mig-29s and SU-37s are more mauevarable but once again, it doesn't matter when an AMRAAM is shoved up your ass.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,098
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Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
Not to take away from the Indian pilots but the F-15 is a pretty old aircraft design and not too well suited for dog fighting. I believe all three of those IAF aircraft are more maneuverable than the F-15.

Consider an F-16 or a F-18 and you have an entirely different ball game...I wouldn't be fair. But I think that was the point of excercise...match F-15 pilots against more manneuverable opponents and the IAF wanted to gauge their long range ATA capability vs. F-15's.

True, but the Mig 21 is certainly older. Not sure about the Mirage 2000, the Su30 should be about equal. I think.

edit: Doh, should have delayed for a couple minutes. :)
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
11,169
1
0
Originally posted by: ITJunkie
Originally posted by: virtueixi
That sucks. How much more do our planes cost anyway?

It's not the planes but the pilots. Personally I think the American Pilots are too arrogant and could use a few more bites of humble pie.

"I think in most cases they were equal to us, superior in some aspects."

Hmmm...let's see. Indian Pilots kicked your ass and the best you can say is "superior in some aspects". Here's an idea let's switch planes and see what happens. My guess is they would probably kick our ass even worse.

Let the flames begin....

rolleye.gif


This isn't world war 2 and the concept of 'aces in the sky' have long been forgotten. Why bother with GPS and AWACS if you're going to dogfight? That's not how our military functions.
 

Gyrene

Banned
Jun 6, 2002
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Meh. Air Force people are pansies. Should have sent a MAW Aggressor Squadron against the Indians.
 

thereds

Diamond Member
Apr 4, 2000
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beer, calm the fvck down dude. No was one was saying that the IAF was better than the USAF.
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
11,169
1
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beer, calm the fvck down dude. No was one was saying that the IAF was better than the USAF.

Originally posted by: ITJunkie
Originally posted by: virtueixi
That sucks. How much more do our planes cost anyway?

Hmmm...let's see. Indian Pilots kicked your ass and the best you can say is "superior in some aspects". Here's an idea let's switch planes and see what happens. My guess is they would probably kick our ass even worse.

Let the flames begin....

Such ignorance fills these boards it makes me want to cry.
 

QueHuong

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2001
2,098
0
0
Originally posted by: beer
So what? India is using old technology from the Soviet era and has spent 18 years and failed to build even a basic jet, with comparable armaments and electronics to the mirage 2000 (which is a 70s-era fighter) in-house. We have companies like Lockheed putting the final touches on F-22s. Plus, India lacks anywhere near the battlefield communications or AWACS technology we have. Their missiles are inferior to our AIM120C AMRAAMs in every single way.

And finally, Mirage 2000s and MIG-21s are absolutely, positively no match for the F-15s. The SU-30s MAYBE in a dogfight but not in avionics, and that's what matters. The mig-21s are from the 60s! The Mig-21s and Mirage 2000s are competitors to the F4 Phantom-era planes, and not F-15s, and especially not their replacement, F22s.

If you think for a second any modern air battle involving US forces would be less than 30 miles, you are kidding yourself. Who gives a sh!t about dogfighting abilities when F15s and F22s can fire an AMRAAM (the F22 under complete stealth by the way) and blow you out of the air before you knew you were targeted?

The indian air force is still a joke, regardless of the propoganda you are fed.


Damn you're taking this pretty personally.


Anyway, that's pretty embarrassing for the US, but I'm over it.
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
11,169
1
0
Originally posted by: MindStorm
Originally posted by: beer
So what? India is using old technology from the Soviet era and has spent 18 years and failed to build even a basic jet, with comparable armaments and electronics to the mirage 2000 (which is a 70s-era fighter) in-house. We have companies like Lockheed putting the final touches on F-22s. Plus, India lacks anywhere near the battlefield communications or AWACS technology we have. Their missiles are inferior to our AIM120C AMRAAMs in every single way.

And finally, Mirage 2000s and MIG-21s are absolutely, positively no match for the F-15s. The SU-30s MAYBE in a dogfight but not in avionics, and that's what matters. The mig-21s are from the 60s! The Mig-21s and Mirage 2000s are competitors to the F4 Phantom-era planes, and not F-15s, and especially not their replacement, F22s.

If you think for a second any modern air battle involving US forces would be less than 30 miles, you are kidding yourself. Who gives a sh!t about dogfighting abilities when F15s and F22s can fire an AMRAAM (the F22 under complete stealth by the way) and blow you out of the air before you knew you were targeted?

The indian air force is still a joke, regardless of the propoganda you are fed.


Damn you're taking this pretty personally.


Anyway, that's pretty embarrassing for the US, but I'm over it.

I have two cousins, one a combat pilot, and an uncle in the USAF. To compare the USAF and the IAF is insulting to them. Not to mention the contractors who build these planes.
 

QueHuong

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2001
2,098
0
0
Originally posted by: beer

I have two cousins, one a combat pilot, and an uncle in the USAF. To compare the USAF and the IAF is insulting to them. Not to mention the contractors who build these planes.

Then I guess it's more insulting when not only the IAF was compared to the USAF, but owned them. Ouch. Really, take thereds advice and calm the hell down.

 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,905
2
76
Can you post a link? i want to read the article.

Forget pilots, just use drones and arm them with AMRAAMs and Phoenixes and then train the guy who grew up on video games to point, click, and shoot! No dogfights. No pilots to train.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,098
5,639
126
Originally posted by: beer
beer, calm the fvck down dude. No was one was saying that the IAF was better than the USAF.

Originally posted by: ITJunkie
Originally posted by: virtueixi
That sucks. How much more do our planes cost anyway?

Hmmm...let's see. Indian Pilots kicked your ass and the best you can say is "superior in some aspects". Here's an idea let's switch planes and see what happens. My guess is they would probably kick our ass even worse.

Let the flames begin....

Such ignorance fills these boards it makes me want to cry.

Though Dogfighting is not very common anymore, I think it's still a skill worth having. Most air-air engagements have been very limited for many decades now, so Missile carrying capabilities have been sufficient, but what if a Major Conflict break out? Would US AirPower be able to handle a WW2 or theoretical Cold War Soviet invasion of Europe? In either type of scenario pilots would quickly run out of missiles and would have to resort to Dogfighting. Without Dogfighting skills to fall back on the US Air Force would become very vulnerable.