India chooses European Jets over USA's F-16, F-18 and Russia's MIG - 35.

[Abwx]

They sound really upbeat and positive when I call tech support, so their standard of living must be pretty high.

So high that the 40m$ MIG35 and F16 didn t stand a chance
against the 80mn$ european jets..
Stupid Russia and USA, they didn t even account
for the necessary hand to hand $ kickbacks...

 

[Nebor]

So high that the 40m$ MIG35 and F16 didn t stand a chance
against the 80mn$ european jets..
Stupid Russia and USA, they didn t even account
for the necessary hand to hand $ kickbacks...

The difference being the US wasn't willing to sell their high end airframe's to anyone that isn't a 1st tier ally. The Europeans apparently do not share our compunction.

 

[Fenixgoon]

you need good pilots in addition to good airplanes. a fighter is only as good as the pilot who's flying it.

 

[Nebor]

you need good pilots in addition to good airplanes. a fighter is only as good as the pilot who's flying it.

Also AWACS & air to air missile technology play a pretty big role, from what I've heard.

 

[sao123]

Wrong.

A dollar put into building a school, into food for people, does things. Flying around in an expensive military jet in a circle doesn't.

I'll let Eisenhower explain it to you:

Eisenhower is a fool, as are you.
Every new jet, every new missile, every new weapon of any kind, all require research, development, manufacture, production, and distribution.
This maintains the employment of tens of thousands of people, and provides for IP which can be licensed for industries long beyond the reach of the military.

the benefits of defense (and ill throw in space exploration) spending are the driving force behind all our high-tech industrys, and go much farther than paying a brick-layer to lay a brick, pay a teacher to force a student to memorize & regurgitate facts about basketweaving.

 

[cirrrocco]

So high that the 40m$ MIG35 and F16 didn t stand a chance
against the 80mn$ european jets..
Stupid Russia and USA, they didn t even account
for the necessary hand to hand $ kickbacks...

Yup exactly like how Boeing paid kickbacks to get the tanker contest. No difference at all and I totally agree with you.

 

[cirrrocco]

You're being too hard on Bush. The guy did a tremendous job in thawing the cold-war era suspicions and motives that Indians have had of the U.S. in that part of the world. If anything, his people laid the groundwork for a lot of the sales and potential sales mentioned above.

The other important fact to note on the above is that they are all low-count high-value sales and most of them (AFAIK) will not have the onerous direct offset clauses as well as tech-transfer conditions. So the manufacturing stays in the U.S. and the margins will be much higher.

I am not dissing Bush. I think one of his legacies will be how his went against everyone else and brought the world's major democracies closer. This definitely will down the line spread freedom, increase in living conditions , bettr trade and a massive strategic alignment.

Just that I was contesting one of our American friends, who said that Obama didnt get any good deals. I was just contradicting him.

 

[Zebo]

Damn, I thought we made best weapons in the world still, guess we are failing there too.

 

[Nebor]

Damn, I thought we made best weapons in the world still, guess we are failing there too.

Nope, we just don't offer our best stuff for sale to non-1st tier allies.

 

[adlep]

A F 22 has not a single chance against the oldy MIG 25 interceptor
wich has a radar so powerfull that the F 22 stealth techs are not
stealthy enough to make it indetectable at a 100km range;;
Moreover, the MIG 25 ceiling is so high that it will easily
detect any plane since the F 22 radar eq surface is not optimised
when a radar wave is projected from a upper point, i.e, from
the only military plane that did break the 100K foots ceiling...

Indeed, russian technology has always been better
than US one in this matter..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-25

Mig-25?
Really?
What about Mig-31
If you make a claim, at least pick the right plane. FYI, Mig-31 is a derivative of Mig-25 with much better radar, long range rockets, and better fire control system. It is equivalent to F-14 - maybe...
Please do not type utter bullshit amigo.

 

[rudder]

This. I don't blame India for wanting a top notch Military. The threats they face are unlike anything the West has faced in at least a Generation.

Peace through superior firepower.

 

[freegeeks]

Just hit google news and type "european libya munitions" and you'll get plenty of results.

But take a guess at why the Belgians made it clear they're not running out of munitions. Care to guess who makes their warplanes? Thus making them compatible with a certain someone's munitions? Oh, that's right, they're flying F16s, equipped with American JDAM smart bombs. Kinda proves my point, doesn't it? The European produced aircraft aren't compatible with our American munitions. So those using our aircraft and our munitions (Belgium & Canada) aren't running out. Everyone else is running low. Which was my original point: The Europeans can supply some pretty nice jets, but they lack the enormous military industrial complex needed to supply the munitions needed to bomb the shit out of the entire world for decades at a time.

We don't have that problem. I watched one of my soldiers use Raindrop to put 2 1000lb JDAMs within 10m of our targets on Peason Ridge last month. :thumbsup:

LOL, the French jets are perfectly capable of delivering American precision munitions

"The French government last year ordered Paveway II and Enhanced Paveway II kits to adapt GBU 12 and 49 "dumb bombs" into guided weapons, an industry source said. Deliveries of the Raytheon-built kits were made before the Libya campaign started.

The Mirage 2000D, Super Etendard and Rafale are certified for the Paveway II, while the Rafale has not yet been certified for the improved version."

and yeah, NATO denied these unnamed sources

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6295569&c=AIR&s=AME

 

[freegeeks]

But we only approve the export of JDAMs to countries that use our planes.

are you sure that you know anything military stuff? JDAM is integrated with the Tornado, used by the Brits, Italians and Germans

Last time I checked, the Tornado is an European fighter jet

Just to help you, JDAM is integrated with the following non US planes


AMX International AMX
Mitsubishi F-2
Panavia Tornado
Mirage F-1
Eurofighter Typhoon

 

[ElFenix]

guessing it wasn't super hornets that were on offer

 

[freegeeks]

guessing it wasn't super hornets that were on offer

wrong guess

Indian MRCA competition

3.1 Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
3.2 Dassault Rafale
3.3 Eurofighter Typhoon
3.4 Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper
3.5 Mikoyan MiG-35
3.6 Saab Gripen NG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMRCA

 

[freegeeks]

The difference being the US wasn't willing to sell their high end airframe's to anyone that isn't a 1st tier ally. The Europeans apparently do not share our compunction.

JSF is not operational and the F-22 production line is closed (and is not for sale anyway)
The most modern airframes that the US has on sale are F-15, F-16, F-18 which are still very good but are 30 year old tech basically.

Rafale, Typhoon, Grifen are 4,5G fighters and have capabilities that are not possible on the old airframes

 

[Abwx]

Mig-25?
Really?
What about Mig-31
If you make a claim, at least pick the right plane. FYI, Mig-31 is a derivative of Mig-25 with much better radar, long range rockets, and better fire control system. It is equivalent to F-14 - maybe...
Please do not type utter bullshit amigo.

It s not a matter of avionics only...
The old MIG 25 has a 600kW radar and its superior
ceiling altitude allow it to flash the stealth planes by
the upper side wich can not be optimised to show a reduced
equivalent radar surface...

This was discovered during the Serbia bombing a decade ago..

The MIG 31 has these capabilties, though the radar although
more recent has not the same power...

 

[freegeeks]

It s not a matter of avionics only...
The old MIG 25 has a 600kW radar and its superior
ceiling altitude allow it to flash the stealth planes by
the upper side wich can not be optimised to show a reduced
equivalent radar surface...

This was discovered during the Serbia bombing a decade ago..

The MIG 31 has these capabilties, though the radar although
more recent has not the same power...

Mig-25 was never used by the Serbs, it was never in the Yugoslavian air force also so you are just making stuff up

the F-117 was shot down by a very creative serbian officer
Full story here, no mention of radar detection by any aircraft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoltán_Dani

 

[busydude]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-16809532

French firm Dassault has emerged as the lowest bidder for a $10bn (£6.3bn) contract to supply India jet fighters.

Dassault Aviation will now enter final negotiations before signing the deal that will supply India's air force with 126 Rafale aircraft.

Correspondents say this is one of the world's biggest defence deals and is a major setback for rival bidder, the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Eurofighter lost out in December on an $8bn deal to supply jets to Japan.
Shares in Dassault Aviation rocketed more than 20% as the latest news broke.

 

[piasabird]

Maybe they just want to support the EU?

oR?

Maybe they dont trus United Socialist America.

Would you trust a country with Hilary Clinton as Secretary of State? The entire leadership of the United States is run by idiots.

 

[freegeeks]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-16809532

Looks like I was right on the money (look at my post from months ago) that the Rafale would win it ;-)

looks like the right choice to me

Must be a sad day for Cow and RabidM that the most capable Indian Airforce fighter will be French

 

[hal2kilo]

That's what you get with Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Boeing and Lockheed-Martin aren't allowed to grease the skids and the Indian government chose those who can/do provide payouts to the decision makers.

That's most likely the reason. Trying to do business with these countries without grease = fail. I still support the law though.

 

[busydude]

That's most likely the reason. Trying to do business with these countries without grease = fail. I still support the law though.

Yup, it is a sad reality. People look at you weirdly if you don't offer kick backs in India.

 

[Oric]

Any details whether European consortium is giving access to weapon and avionics software ? Us and russia do not, it might have made a huge difference for india. They might not like the idea if someone else point oyt who is friend or foe during a combat

 

[freegeeks]

Any details whether European consortium is giving access to weapon and avionics software ? Us and russia do not, it might have made a huge difference for india. They might not like the idea if someone else point oyt who is friend or foe during a combat

There will be a ToT (transfer of technology), to what extend, no idea