Income tax voluntary?

RobCur

Banned
Oct 4, 2002
3,076
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I don't think so, you must pay taxes because your employer had report you to the IRS.. Not doing so will get you into a lot of trouble. The IRS is despicable, lied about it in their manual saying it's voluntary. Yeah right!
:roll:
I don't have problem with paying a little taxes but the problem is we pay too many and too much :(
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: RobCur
I don't think so, you must pay taxes because your employer had report you to the IRS.. Not doing so will get you into a lot of trouble. The IRS is despicable, lied about it in their manual saying it's voluntary. Yeah right!
:roll:
I don't have problem with paying a little taxes but the problem is we pay too many and too much :(

Actually I think you are confusing voluntary with voluntary compliance.
 

ggavinmoss

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2001
4,798
1
0
Are you quoting one of those "The Federal Government has no legitimate authority! Join you local Militia!" Web sites?

-geoff
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,344
126
If you are paying too much then hire a better accountant.

Sure I had a lot taken out of my paycheck over the year, but in the end I had an effective tax rate of around 7%. That's not too bad of a pill to swallow considering I've got one of the best road systems in the world, a structured education program, police to protect my home, firefighters on call, and a standing army to protect my country.
 

zixxer

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2001
7,326
0
0
Originally posted by: vi_edit
If you are paying too much then hire a better accountant.

Sure I had a lot taken out of my paycheck over the year, but in the end I had an effective tax rate of around 7%. That's not too bad of a pill to swallow considering I've got one of the best road systems in the world, a structured education program, police to protect my home, firefighters on call, and a standing army to protect my country.

I don't know how much money you make; but I don't make very much yet have much more taken out of my paycheck than that. This next year will be worse (private owned company being bought out, and I will have to pay taxes on my cashout, along with tuition reimbursement junk I don't even want to think about.)
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,561
4,059
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I don't have a clue what you are talking about with respect to IRS, manuals, and voluntary. Could you please fill us in with more details?

But no taxes are not voluntary, and they are actually quite low. Compare our taxes to other similar countries and you'll be quite glad you pay US taxes instead.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
hahaha yeah taxes are voluntary. If you don't volunteer to pay you volunteer for jail!

heheh i love how this comes up every year.

But i agree that taxes are to high. If you own a home+make a decent amount of income you pay a LOT. I would like to see a flat tax and less screwing homeowners.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
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0
This debate has been going on for decades. And as much as I wish it were the case, tax court after tax court has said that you must pay taxes.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,561
4,059
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Originally posted by: waggy
If you own a home+make a decent amount of income you pay a LOT. I would like to see a flat tax and less screwing homeowners.
I'm curious where in your INCOME tax forms, does owning a home INCREASE your tax? I see many deductions for homes, but I still haven't found the line that increases income tax.
 

zixxer

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2001
7,326
0
0
Originally posted by: vi_edit
If you are paying too much then hire a better accountant.

Sure I had a lot taken out of my paycheck over the year, but in the end I had an effective tax rate of around 7%. That's not too bad of a pill to swallow considering I've got one of the best road systems in the world, a structured education program, police to protect my home, firefighters on call, and a standing army to protect my country.

I don't know how much money you make; but I don't make very much yet have much more taken out of my paycheck than that. This next year will be worse (private owned company being bought out, and I will have to pay taxes on my cashout, along with tuition reimbursement junk I don't even want to think about.)
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: vi_edit
If you are paying too much then hire a better accountant.

Sure I had a lot taken out of my paycheck over the year, but in the end I had an effective tax rate of around 7%. That's not too bad of a pill to swallow considering I've got one of the best road systems in the world, a structured education program, police to protect my home, firefighters on call, and a standing army to protect my country.

The issue I bring up with that is the Constitution only calls for the Federal government to maintain national security, ie standing army to protect my country. All of those other things, should be local, not federal.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: dullard
I don't have a clue what you are talking about with respect to IRS, manuals, and voluntary. Could you please fill us in with more details?

But no taxes are not voluntary, and they are actually quite low. Compare our taxes to other similar countries and you'll be quite glad you pay US taxes instead.

The IRS bases their auditing strategies etc on the idea that the vast majority of Americans voluntarily comply with the tax laws. I am betting that is what he saw the word voluntary in relation to in IRS publications.
 

kermalou

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2001
6,237
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0
homeowners actually get tax breaks ..... deductions for your real estate taxes and interest expenses on mortgages under 1,000,0000
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: vi_edit
If you are paying too much then hire a better accountant.

Sure I had a lot taken out of my paycheck over the year, but in the end I had an effective tax rate of around 7%. That's not too bad of a pill to swallow considering I've got one of the best road systems in the world, a structured education program, police to protect my home, firefighters on call, and a standing army to protect my country.

The issue I bring up with that is the Constitution only calls for the Federal government to maintain national security, ie standing army to protect my country. All of those other things, should be local, not federal.

But then the states screwed up and tacked these 2 amendments to the Constitution:

Article XVI.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Proposal and Ratification

The sixteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States was proposed to the legislatures of the several States by the Sixty-first Congress on the 12th of July, 1909, and was declared, in a proclamation of the Secretary of State, dated the 25th of February, 1913, to have been ratified by 36 of the 48 States. The dates of ratification were: Alabama, August 10, 1909; Kentucky, February 8, 1910; South Carolina, February 19, 1910; Illinois, March 1, 1910; Mississippi, March 7, 1910; Oklahoma, March 10, 1910; Maryland, April 8, 1910; Georgia, August 3, 1910; Texas, August 16, 1910; Ohio, January 19, 1911; Idaho, January 20, 1911; Oregon, January 23, 1911; Washington, January 26, 1911; Montana, January 30, 1911; Indiana, January 30, 1911; California, January 31, 1911; Nevada, January 31, 1911; South Dakota, February 3, 1911; Nebraska, February 9, 1911; North Carolina, February 11, 1911; Colorado, February 15, 1911; North Dakota, February 17, 1911; Kansas, February 18, 1911; Michigan, February 23, 1911; Iowa, February 24, 1911; Missouri, March 16, 1911; Maine, March 31, 1911; Tennessee, April 7, 1911; Arkansas, April 22, 1911 (after having rejected it earlier); Wisconsin, May 26, 1911; New York, July 12, 1911; Arizona, April 6, 1912; Minnesota, June 11, 1912; Louisiana, June 28, 1912; West Virginia, January 31, 1913; New Mexico, February 3, 1913.

Ratification was completed on February 3, 1913.

The amendment was subsequently ratified by Massachusetts, March 4, 1913; New Hampshire, March 7, 1913 (after having rejected it on March 2, 1911).

The amendment was rejected (and not subsequently ratified) by Connecticut, Rhode Island, and Utah.

[Article XVII.]
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.

When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.

This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.

Proposal and Ratification

The seventeenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States was proposed to the legislatures of the several States by the Sixty-second Congress on the 13th of May, 1912, and was declared, in a proclamation of the Secretary of State, dated the 31st of May, 1913, to have been ratified by the legislatures of 36 of the 48 States. The dates of ratification were: Massachusetts, May 22, 1912; Arizona, June 3, 1912; Minnesota, June 10, 1912; New York, January 15, 1913; Kansas, January 17, 1913; Oregon, January 23, 1913; North Carolina, January 25, 1913; California, January 28, 1913; Michigan, January 28, 1913; Iowa, January 30, 1913; Montana, January 30, 1913; Idaho, January 31, 1913; West Virginia, February 4, 1913; Colorado, February 5, 1913; Nevada, February 6, 1913; Texas, February 7, 1913; Washington, February 7, 1913; Wyoming, February 8, 1913; Arkansas, February 11, 1913; Maine, February 11, 1913; Illinois, February 13, 1913; North Dakota, February 14, 1913; Wisconsin, February 18, 1913; Indiana, February 19, 1913; New Hampshire, February 19, 1913; Vermont, February 19, 1913; South Dakota, February 19, 1913; Oklahoma, February 24, 1913; Ohio, February 25, 1913; Missouri, March 7, 1913; New Mexico, March 13, 1913; Nebraska, March 14, 1913; New Jersey, March 17, 1913; Tennessee, April 1, 1913; Pennsylvania, April 2, 1913; Connecticut, April 8, 1913.

Ratification was completed on April 8, 1913.

The amendment was subsequently ratified by Louisiana, June 11, 1914.

The amendment was rejected by Utah (and not subsequently ratified) on February 26, 1913.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,344
126
Originally posted by: CPA
Originally posted by: vi_edit
If you are paying too much then hire a better accountant.

Sure I had a lot taken out of my paycheck over the year, but in the end I had an effective tax rate of around 7%. That's not too bad of a pill to swallow considering I've got one of the best road systems in the world, a structured education program, police to protect my home, firefighters on call, and a standing army to protect my country.

The issue I bring up with that is the Constitution only calls for the Federal government to maintain national security, ie standing army to protect my country. All of those other things, should be local, not federal.

True. But in my list I also forgot the largest parts of what make up my fedaral tax rate - Social Security and Medicare. Which are also quite disputable...
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Originally posted by: waggy
But i agree that taxes are to high. If you own a home+make a decent amount of income you pay a LOT. I would like to see a flat tax and less screwing homeowners.
Property taxes are just you paying back the state for all the free or subsidized education you and your kids got. You might not like paying them now, but you owe the debt to the people before you.

Renters pay too, just as part of the cost of their rent.

That isn't to say some of the money isn't wasted -- schools seem to add more and more layers of paper-pushing administrators instead of teachers, but to fix that you'd need to be involved with the parental oversight of your local school system.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: kermalou
homeowners actually get tax breaks ..... deductions for your real estate taxes and interest expenses on mortgages under 1,000,0000

yes you do get some tax breaks. but i still end up paying more then if i did not own a house. I pay an extra 6k a year in taxes. I do get back some but not all.
 

RobCur

Banned
Oct 4, 2002
3,076
0
0
Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: RobCur
I don't think so, you must pay taxes because your employer had report you to the IRS.. Not doing so will get you into a lot of trouble. The IRS is despicable, lied about it in their manual saying it's voluntary. Yeah right!
:roll:
I don't have problem with paying a little taxes but the problem is we pay too many and too much :(

Actually I think you are confusing voluntary with voluntary compliance.
It's a big scam I tell you, the accountants made more money then you can in a whole year in one day!
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
Originally posted by: RobCur
Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: RobCur
I don't think so, you must pay taxes because your employer had report you to the IRS.. Not doing so will get you into a lot of trouble. The IRS is despicable, lied about it in their manual saying it's voluntary. Yeah right!
:roll:
I don't have problem with paying a little taxes but the problem is we pay too many and too much :(

Actually I think you are confusing voluntary with voluntary compliance.
It's a big scam I tell you, the accountants made more money then you can in a whole year in one day!

Not all of us. I make squat during tax season, because I am NOT a tax accountant, nor do I want to be one. I wouldn't feel right prospering from a system that I abhore.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
so what do you guys think of Bush's idea of stopping income tax and having on stuff you purchase?

I think its a good idea. but what amount would it be? how would poor people afford food and such?
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
57
91
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: kermalou
homeowners actually get tax breaks ..... deductions for your real estate taxes and interest expenses on mortgages under 1,000,0000

yes you do get some tax breaks. but i still end up paying more then if i did not own a house. I pay an extra 6k a year in taxes. I do get back some but not all.

That's odd. But you're not talking about just income tax, right? You are talking about property taxes as well?

I have to agree with an earlier poster. I make decent money (more that $50k/year, less than $100k), have a house, 1 acre of land, wife, 2 kids, and my effective tax rate is ~6% per year for federal (no state income tax). And this is without any "loop-holes" or using a tax-advisor. I either do them myslef (last year) or take them to H&R Block.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: waggy
Originally posted by: kermalou
homeowners actually get tax breaks ..... deductions for your real estate taxes and interest expenses on mortgages under 1,000,0000

yes you do get some tax breaks. but i still end up paying more then if i did not own a house. I pay an extra 6k a year in taxes. I do get back some but not all.

That's odd. But you're not talking about just income tax, right? You are talking about property taxes as well?

I have to agree with an earlier poster. I make decent money (more that $50k/year, less than $100k), have a house, 1 acre of land, wife, 2 kids, and my effective tax rate is ~6% per year for federal (no state income tax). And this is without any "loop-holes" or using a tax-advisor. I either do them myslef (last year) or take them to H&R Block.

right. not just income but also property taxes.
 

GasX

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
29,033
6
81
Originally posted by: RobCur
I don't think so, you must pay taxes because your employer had report you to the IRS.. Not doing so will get you into a lot of trouble. The IRS is despicable, lied about it in their manual saying it's voluntary. Yeah right!
:roll:
I don't have problem with paying a little taxes but the problem is we pay too many and too much :(
Tax dollars are spent on education. You are clearly living off the grid...