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In Ukraine, the US and Europe have limited options

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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,140
13,081
136
The correct move is whatever it takes to stop nations from invading an allied country. If that's sinking every Russian ship, buzzing the ground troops with fighters or having a sit down with their leader, it needs to be done.

We tried the isolationist theory before and it did not end well for anyone. Sometimes you have to puff out your chest and sometimes you have to throw punches.

I know it goes against the pussified liberal teaching but...

Sometimes fighting is the right thing to do.
Except that Ukraine isn't an ally, at all, not to mention that War with the Russians probably isn't a good idea from sane perspectives, particularly in their own backyard.

Oh, wait. I said sane perspectives, didn't I? That rules out raving Righties in support of a Neocon agenda, I suppose.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Except that Ukraine isn't an ally, at all, not to mention that War with the Russians probably isn't a good idea from sane perspectives, particularly in their own backyard.

Oh, wait. I said sane perspectives, didn't I? That rules out raving Righties in support of a Neocon agenda, I suppose.
I know we should support the sane liberal idea of isolationism.

Every country in the world will love us, as long as we become a wallflower. The middle east will become a utopia, Russia and China will go back to just minding their own borders. And everyone will be happy. The USA just needs to disappear.
 

cyclohexane

Platinum Member
Feb 12, 2005
2,837
19
81
Glad Obama is president. If this happened with Bush, we'd have "operation Ukraine freedom" and no doubt a colossal fuck up.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,140
13,081
136
I know we should support the sane liberal idea of isolationism.

Every country in the world will love us, as long as we become a wallflower. The middle east will become a utopia, Russia and China will go back to just minding their own borders. And everyone will be happy. The USA just needs to disappear.
When confronted with reality, resort to absurdity so as to maintain Denial. The US cannot rule the world, despite Neocon fantasy to the contrary.

We figured that out in Vietnam, then forgot in the Rah-Rah militarism of the Reagan era, culminating in the Admin of GWB. How's that working out, anyway? Iraq? Afghanistan?

Hey, thrusting our big swinging dick into the middle of any situation is obviously a great idea, huh?
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
When confronted with reality, resort to absurdity so as to maintain Denial. The US cannot rule the world, despite Neocon fantasy to the contrary.

We figured that out in Vietnam, then forgot in the Rah-Rah militarism of the Reagan era, culminating in the Admin of GWB. How's that working out, anyway? Iraq? Afghanistan?

Hey, thrusting our big swinging dick into the middle of any situation is obviously a great idea, huh?

dont cry when you wake up surrounded by enemies.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,431
82
91
When confronted with reality, resort to absurdity so as to maintain Denial. The US cannot rule the world, despite Neocon fantasy to the contrary.

We figured that out in Vietnam, then forgot in the Rah-Rah militarism of the Reagan era, culminating in the Admin of GWB. How's that working out, anyway? Iraq? Afghanistan?

Hey, thrusting our big swinging dick into the middle of any situation is obviously a great idea, huh?
A little too late to put back the swinging dick now. Putin played obama. Truly Putin was analyzing the chess board while obama was flicking marbles. The obama administration was fomenting the protests and putting their noses into Russia and Ukraine's business... now obama has to deal with his shortsightedness and ability to manage affairs on the world stage.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,083
490
126
A little too late to put back the swinging dick now. Putin played obama. Truly Putin was analyzing the chess board while obama was flicking marbles. The obama administration was fomenting the protests and putting their noses into Russia and Ukraine's business... now obama has to deal with his shortsightedness.
Putin may have over played his cards on this. Economically speaking they are getting slammed right now. Also this should push Ukraine to join the west to stop further intrusion. So they lost Ukraine's allegiance. It may seem like Putin has played Obama. But really what has he gained? Crimea? And for what? Damaged relations with the west? Further economic isolation? Potential military isolation?
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,140
13,081
136
A little too late to put back the swinging dick now. Putin played obama. Truly Putin was analyzing the chess board while obama was flicking marbles. The obama administration was fomenting the protests and putting their noses into Russia and Ukraine's business... now obama has to deal with his shortsightedness and ability to manage affairs on the world stage.
So, uhh, you have evidence that the Obama Admin was fomenting the protests? Really?

Or is that just something you need to believe to reach your conclusions?
 

OBLAMA2009

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2008
6,577
3
0
the u.s. is very hypocritical. its invading countries all over the world and when another country goes in to its neighbor after a coup, it has the nerve to threaten them? the overthrown gov in ukraine was an elected government and that woman (yulia tymoshenko) that the us wants to install in that country is a known crook who transfered something like half the countrys natural gas resources to herself, making herself an overnight billionaire. the part of ukraine that russian went into is mostly ethnically russian, it should naturally be part of russia anyway. the u.s shouldnt be able to tell every other country what to do as if it is the king of the planet.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,083
490
126
the u.s. is very hypocritical. its invading countries all over the world and when another country goes in to its neighbor after a coup, it has the nerve to threaten them? the overthrown gov in ukraine was an elected government and that woman (yulia tymoshenko) that the us wants to install in that country is a known crook who transfered something like half the countrys natural gas resources to herself, making herself an overnight billionaire. the part of ukraine that russian went into is mostly ethnically russian, it should naturally be part of russia anyway. the u.s shouldnt be able to tell every other country what to do as if it is the king of the planet.
The former president was voted out of office, even by his own party. He is also wanted in connection with the murders of dozens of citizens.

Coup not found.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,181
18,981
136
the u.s. is very hypocritical. its invading countries all over the world and when another country goes in to its neighbor after a coup, it has the nerve to threaten them? the overthrown gov in ukraine was an elected government and that woman (yulia tymoshenko) that the us wants to install in that country is a known crook who transfered something like half the countrys natural gas resources to herself, making herself an overnight billionaire. the part of ukraine that russian went into is mostly ethnically russian, it should naturally be part of russia anyway. the u.s shouldnt be able to tell every other country what to do as if it is the king of the planet.
Oh, you mean the person convicted in a trial that was denounced as a politically motivated show trial by Amnesty International? That's a really compelling argument, particularly because the president that was recently ousted is one of the least popular and most notoriously corrupt executives anywhere in Eastern Europe outside of... well... Russia itself.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
3,008
126
Putin may have over played his cards on this. Economically speaking they are getting slammed right now. Also this should push Ukraine to join the west to stop further intrusion. So they lost Ukraine's allegiance. It may seem like Putin has played Obama. But really what has he gained? Crimea? And for what? Damaged relations with the west? Further economic isolation? Potential military isolation?
Military... isolation?
Russia And China 'In Agreement' Over Ukraine

Damaged relations with the west?
Europe’s dependence on Russian oil and gas

Losing Ukraine?
Half of Ukraine is pro-Russia.

They can get more than Crimea to defect, but the Russian stronghold / Black Sea port and military base is a good place to start.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,083
490
126
Military... isolation?
Russia And China 'In Agreement' Over Ukraine

Damaged relations with the west?
Europe’s dependence on Russian oil and gas

Losing Ukraine?
Half of Ukraine is pro-Russia.

They can get more than Crimea to defect, but the Russian stronghold / Black Sea port and military base is a good place to start.
So one authoritarian regime is "mostly" fine with anothers incursion according to the one doing the incursion. Great to know!

Do you believe the West's future economic relationships with Russia wont be affected?

You realize people of Russian decent represent 17% of the population within Ukraine right? Your graphic is misleading. On top of that there is no guarantee all peoples of "russian" decent are pro-russian and want to break anymore than chinese are pro-china within the United States.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
3,008
126
How did you reach that conclusion?

Just because someone speaks Russian does not mean that person is pro-Russia!

Seriously? If you want to make that point, find a chart that actually deals with that point.
Such little understanding.

This is a geographical political divide. Ukraine is as good as two nations, and the mob in Kiev overthrowing the pro-Russian government sparked a rift that will not soon heal. Now Russia has seized the opportunity to make that divide more permanent.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,181
18,981
136
Such little understanding.

This is a geographical political divide. Ukraine is as good as two nations, and the mob in Kiev overthrowing the pro-Russian government sparked a rift that will not soon heal. Now Russia has seized the opportunity to make that divide more permanent.
Sorry, but he's right. Russian speaking does not equal pro-Russia. You need to understand the area a bit better, specifically looking back into the legacy of the USSR and their attempts to force Russian onto local populations.
 

dawheat

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
3,121
68
91
I know we should support the sane liberal idea of isolationism.

Every country in the world will love us, as long as we become a wallflower. The middle east will become a utopia, Russia and China will go back to just minding their own borders. And everyone will be happy. The USA just needs to disappear.
Wow, just wow. Any sane foreign policy is focused on the benefits to your country and people. The current admin has used force, even against the wishes of other countries, when it benefited us (Pakistan) and where the risk was worthwhile.

To charge blindly into this situation, against a major nuclear power, with no direct benefits to the US, is utterly asinine. When you escalate, you increase the risk of casualties, accidental or not. The moment an uniformed US or Russian solider is killed by the opposite, pressure will mount hugely to retaliate. And for what benefit to the US or US people?

When the balance of force is heavily lopsided like it is in most confrontations with the US, then the direct threat of force is a useful tactic. When the balance of forces in that particular region are essentially equal and both are nuclear powers, you damn well make sure the US has a positive end game that's worth the risk.

Otherwise we do exactly what we're doing - get international pressure, economic tools, and other non-military options in action.

How lucky are we that the above type of poster was not in authority during the Cuban missile crisis.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,302
1,203
126
Wow, just wow. Any sane foreign policy is focused on the benefits to your country and people. The current admin has used force, even against the wishes of other countries, when it benefited us (Pakistan) and where the risk was worthwhile.

To charge blindly into this situation, against a major nuclear power, with no direct benefits to the US, is utterly asinine. When you escalate, you increase the risk of casualties, accidental or not. The moment an uniformed US or Russian solider is killed by the opposite, pressure will mount hugely to retaliate. And for what benefit to the US or US people?

When the balance of force is heavily lopsided like it is in most confrontations with the US, then the direct threat of force is a useful tactic. When the balance of forces in that particular region are essentially equal and both are nuclear powers, you damn well make sure the US has a positive end game that's worth the risk.

Otherwise we do exactly what we're doing - get international pressure, economic tools, and other non-military options in action.

How lucky are we that the above type of poster was not in authority during the Cuban missile crisis.
Obama is handling this like a pro. I have been very impressed with his leadership during this crisis. He has done everything to keep this from escalating. He has truly earned his foreign affairs chops.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,505
3,008
126
No more two nations than the United States.
*facepalm

First, I fully support secession here at home.

Second, we're not nearly as divided. The equivalence would be if all those red states were Mexican who mostly spoke their native language. Who were numerous enough to elect a President who the blue states then overthrew with a mob. A mob who, immediately afterwards, made English the official language.

The overthrow in Kiev ripped Ukraine apart. What part of that don't you get? The maps spell it out. Only half of Ukraine is pro-west. The rest will defect if these divisions are pursued. Russia has seized an opportunity.

You say Russia loses Ukraine.
I say they only lose the half they never had. I say they gain the other half.
 

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