In Pakistan, denial is easier than heartbreak - OpEd

[kage69]

Why? Do you think that Turkey is now lost to the muslim fundamentalists? I have hope that, with our help, they will see the errors of muslim controlled government and come home to freedom.

No, I don't. Turkey has a secular government which is at times hampered by religious conservatives (a lot like another country I'm rather fond of) but that is a far cry from it being run by Tehran 2.0

The forces of secular modernity have just had too much time to get a foot hold there, the fundies wouldn't be able to change anything short of an outside power shifting the bulk of public opinion with aggression or subversion.

It's 2011, you neocons have had 8 years to contemplate blowback and that little notion known as cause and effect, and you're STILL not getting it. *shakes head*

Turkey has no business even being in the same sentence with Pakistan.

 

[bfdd]

No, I don't. Turkey has a secular government which is at times hampered by religious conservatives (a lot like another country I'm rather fond of) but that is a far cry from it being run by Tehran 2.0

The forces of secular modernity have just had too much time to get a foot hold there, the fundies wouldn't be able to change anything short of an outside power shifting the bulk of public opinion with aggression or subversion.

It's 2011, you neocons have had 8 years to contemplate blowback and that little notion known as cause and effect, and you're STILL not getting it. *shakes head*

Turkey has no business even being in the same sentence with Pakistan.

What about this sentence. Turkey is better than Pakistan at arm wrestling. or. I would rather visit Turkey than Pakistan.

are those ok?

 

[kage69]

Please stay away, you make things MUCH WORSE

Exactly.


Sorry, his kind just can't comprehend how "aid and instruction" can be seen in a different light by others, and how those efforts can actually contribute to the scenario he fears. But then, neocons have this thing about self-fulfilling prophecies...

Whatever. I'm cautious about Erdogan, don't like his backward view on religion in government, but the way he's been conducting himself in regards to Syria's Assad makes me respect him more than I used to.

 

[evident]

We should be partnering with the Pakistani military and the Pakistani political members to instruct and aid in the forming of a true democratic and free society.

Afghanistan is a wasted side show.

don't we already pump billions and billions of dollars into their country already?

 

[kage69]

This is exactly why I have been saying for years now, the key to SW Asia is not Afghanistan, that's just a rock pile masquerading as a country, but Pakistan. Pakistan is where our military efforts ought be.

Now before you knee jerk thinkers out there think I am talking about a forced entry, I am not. We should be partnering with the Pakistani military and the Pakistani political members to instruct and aid in the forming of a true democratic and free society.

Afghanistan is a wasted side show.

I still can't believe you posted what is bolded. It's like you don't know a damn thing about Pakistan's political and military culture, and have chosen to ignore the problematic nature of having to deal with what in essence is a country (ISI) within a country (the Army) within a country (Pakistan) that prefers to keep the civilian government marginalized and in the dark.


Partnering! What a concept! Man, we should have done some kind of partnering with them back in 2001! Why didn't anyone think of that before?!?


*sigh*

 

[Lemon law]

While I think Turkey is a pretty cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything, Pakistan is pretty shit LL and your post(related to Pakistan) seems to come out on the defensive... Are you Pakistani by any chance LL?

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No, I am not, nor am I Palestinian.

I am an American of primarily Scandinavian ancestry.

And while I am not an American isolationist, I am sick and tired of seeing my country engaging in a stupid, shortsighted, and counterproductive foreign policy.

And as a chess player, I believe in a complete understanding of what our potential enemy is although its hard to say we really have any real "enemies". But in chess playing parlance we can say the person on the other side of the chess board who wants to win as badly as I do. And even if we can say all is fair in love and chess, woe be the chess player who does not understand the strengths and weaknesses of their opponents position better than the opponent does. Building a distorted and underestimated idea of your opponents position is the quickest way to lose in chess. Because the only one you fool is yourself.

 

[a777pilot]

I still can't believe you posted what is bolded. It's like you don't know a damn thing about Pakistan's political and military culture, and have chosen to ignore the problematic nature of having to deal with what in essence is a country (ISI) within a country (the Army) within a country (Pakistan) that prefers to keep the civilian government marginalized and in the dark.


Partnering! What a concept! Man, we should have done some kind of partnering with them back in 2001! Why didn't anyone think of that before?!?


*sigh*

It's like you don't know a damn thing about Pakistan's political and military culture, and have chosen to ignore the problematic nature of having to deal with what in essence is a country (ISI) within a country (the Army) within a country (Pakistan) that prefers to keep the civilian government marginalized and in the dark.

I haven't ignored a thing.

 

[cirrrocco]

It is all about the nukes.

We can blame Bill Clinton for that

But seriously, without Nukes we would be gone. I wonder if we could seize their nukes if we had too. I am sure we have their locations and I am sure some of their senior military types would want us to take them if they saw their country about to fall apart.

Come on man, that BS blaming Clinton for that. It was Nixon / Reagan who should be blamed. They knew that China was transferring Nuclear blue prints to Pakistan, but I am sure they didnt care coz Pakistan was the conduit for them to conduct talks with China and also the point from which operations were carried out in afghanistan and USSR.

It is only when the the problem child started attacking western targets that the tune changed from bestest ally to slightly eccentrci country. Even after Pakistan has been involved in killing more american troops than anyone else in the last few decades and the biggest lose of treasure, the fuckheads in the govt still insist on giving them free weapons..

so stupid.

 

[bfdd]

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No, I am not, nor am I Palestinian.

I am an American of primarily Scandinavian ancestry.

And while I am not an American isolationist, I am sick and tired of seeing my country engaging in a stupid, shortsighted, and counterproductive foreign policy.

And as a chess player, I believe in a complete understanding of what our potential enemy is although its hard to say we really have any real "enemies". But in chess playing parlance we can say the person on the other side of the chess board who wants to win as badly as I do. And even if we can say all is fair in love and chess, woe be the chess player who does not understand the strengths and weaknesses of their opponents position better than the opponent does. Building a distorted and underestimated idea of your opponents position is the quickest way to lose in chess. Because the only one you fool is yourself.

LL, please I know you're neither of those things I'm just fucking with you because your post was similar to what the OP was talking about. I don't really give a fuck who you are or where you come from to be honest Most of what I say is in jest tbh.

 

[Lemon law]

LL, please I know you're neither of those things I'm just fucking with you because your post was similar to what the OP was talking about. I don't really give a fuck who you are or where you come from to be honest Most of what I say is in jest tbh.

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Sorry bfdd, this is nothing to jest about here , we are now spending 2 billion a week flushing down some Afghan toilet. Its so far cost us now at least a trillion dollars not to mention all the lives lost on all sides.

What is hard to understand here, when we have nothing nothing and nothing to show for it.

Bfdd, if you ain't totally pissed off and enraged, there is something seriously wrong with you.

 

[kage69]

I haven't ignored a thing.

If you say so, but then that would narrow it down to you just being delusional. The last ten years of dealing with Pakistan has shown anyone paying attention that your little short and sweet "oh lets just partner with them!" plan is pure fantasy.

 

[yllus]

Very good article. Very accurate in getting across how the average Pakistani views the army and how they've had to stoop to cognitive dissonance in order to avoid a shock to the system.