In color management hell with Photos. Please help.

[thatsright]

At first I didn't want this post to be long/rambling. But then again, I want to include all detail in the hopes someone can see a flaw in my color management process. I am in HELL kids, HELL. For over two years I have wasted hundreds of $$ on sending prints out to Adorama and others. Sometimes the prints were 'close enough' but usually a huge miss. So I recently bought the Canon Pro9000 Mk II printer. At first I thought I saw an improvement over files I got back from Adorama which were duds. But now I'm even more lost. My main problem is shadow detail and colors. Usually the photo's shadows are too dark and sometimes completely black. There also seems to be decreased brightness, but the shadow issue is the biggest. I also have colors that sometimes come close, but not so much when printed on the new printer. My equipment:

-HP LP2475w LCD 24"
-Nvidia Geforce 9800 GT video card with 12-10-09 drivers
-Photoshop CS4 and Bridge. Fully patched.
-Windows 7 64-Bit fully patched
-Canon Pro9000 Mk II Printer w/ latest drivers and Canon paper profiles.
-Spyder 3 Pro calibration device

Monitor settings:
-Brightness: 0 (yes, that's right-ZERO!)
-Contrast: 65
RGB Custom color settings:
-Red 254
-Green 219
-Blue 232
Calibrated with Spyder 3 pro, I get the following values:
Taget K = 6540K
Lum: 63.5

(Before getting my canon printer I had MUCH better color/brightness but 'flat' shadows with the following settings:
Bri 8, Con 80, Red 236 Green 210 Blue 210. Spyder 3 values: Target K= 6499k, Lum 93)

In Photoshop, I am using RGB workspace. Under the Color Settings Menu, I have:
Settings: North American General Purpose 2
-Working Space: sRGB IEC........
-Color Management polices are all default.

File Workflow:

I will open a Nikon NEF file in Camera Raw as a 16Bit RGB file. In PSP, I do my edits and then save as a 16Bit Tiff. Then use soft proofing with the Canon paper profiles. There is usually quite a shift in shadows, so I correct. Then I send straight to the printer. I DO NOT convert to the printer profile. In the canon printer menu, I use the following settings:
-Color Handling: Photoshop Manages Colors.
-Printer Profile: Working RGB - sRGB IEC.....
-Rendering Intent: Perceptual
-No Black Point Compensation
Under 'Manual Color Adjustment' for the printer, I set it to:
-Color Correction: None

Then off it goes and then 10 minutes later I am cursing, dejected and wondering where it all went wrong. It seems like there could be two dozen points of failure. Is my monitor calibrated wrong? I have used 3 different brightness settings (Bri 0, 8, 15) and it does not change how bright the pic is? Some horrible setting mishap in PSP? Should I be converting to the Canon paper profile when done soft proofing? In the past, I don't remember the PSP 'Color Settings' preferences of 'Settings' set to North American General Purpose 2. I think it was always set to 'custom.'

Thoughts. Can you see something obvious I'm missing. Man, I'm really loosing it....

 

[PurdueRy]

Well, There could be poor measurements at that low of brightness on the monitor but assuming that's all correct the only glaring error I see is that you should select the paper profile you are using in photoshop.

 

[thatsright]

Well, There could be poor measurements at that low of brightness on the monitor but assuming that's all correct the only glaring error I see is that you should select the paper profile you are using in photoshop.

I soft proof using the canon paper profile. Then when printing, I select the same paper profile on the canon print job setup page.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

There are two color profiles:

Monitor color profile. You make this profile using your colorimeter and have your OS load it.

Your printer & paper profile. These are rolled up in one. The printing profile is the specific profile combination of X paper + Y printer + Z ink. If you use the same printer but a different paper, you need to get a new printer profile that has that new paper combination. So if you're using a Canon printer and Epson paper, it's not good enough that you just download Canon profiles, because those profiles were likely made with Canon's own paper. You need to get a Canon profile that was made using that Canon printer + Epson paper.

If you use third party ink it's even more complex because third party inks generally don't have profiles, much less profiles of them in conjunction with a specific printer and a specific paper. At this point you're just going to have to print out a lot of test prints.

Load up the monitor profile in your OS. Edit the photo in Adobe RGB. Soft proof using the printer + paper profile. Print the photo with printer color management off. Print using the same profile as the one you soft proofed with and with the same paper that that profile is intended for (your "output profile"). Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric is a crapshoot. Just pick one and see which is better.

 

[PurdueRy]

I soft proof using the canon paper profile. Then when printing, I select the same paper profile on the canon print job setup page.

Selecting the paper type in the printer menu does nothing for you if you turn printer color management off. This is ok, however, since you have color management in photoshop turned on. However, you STILL need to select the printer profile for the specific printer/paper combination you are using.

 

[thatsright]

There are two color profiles:

Monitor color profile. You make this profile using your colorimeter and have your OS load it.

Your printer & paper profile. These are rolled up in one. The printing profile is the specific profile combination of X paper + Y printer + Z ink. If you use the same printer but a different paper, you need to get a new printer profile that has that new paper combination. So if you're using a Canon printer and Epson paper, it's not good enough that you just download Canon profiles, because those profiles were likely made with Canon's own paper. You need to get a Canon profile that was made using that Canon printer + Epson paper.

If you use third party ink it's even more complex because third party inks generally don't have profiles, much less profiles of them in conjunction with a specific printer and a specific paper. At this point you're just going to have to print out a lot of test prints.

Load up the monitor profile in your OS. Edit the photo in Adobe RGB. Soft proof using the printer + paper profile. Print the photo with printer color management off. Print using the same profile as the one you soft proofed with and with the same paper that that profile is intended for (your "output profile"). Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric is a crapshoot. Just pick one and see which is better.

Everything you suggest I already do now. Spyder3 monitor profile loads @ OS startup. I use canon ink only. I soft proof using prtiner/paper profile and print with Printer color management off.

 

[PurdueRy]

Everything you suggest I already do now. Spyder3 monitor profile loads @ OS startup. I use canon ink only. I soft proof using prtiner/paper profile and print with Printer color management off.

Except you're not doing this:

Print using the same profile as the one you soft proofed with and with the same paper that that profile is intended for (your "output profile"). Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric is a crapshoot. Just pick one and see which is better.

As I said, you have to select the paper profile in the photoshop color management section.

 

[thatsright]

Except you're not doing this:

Print using the same profile as the one you soft proofed with and with the same paper that that profile is intended for (your "output profile"). Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric is a crapshoot. Just pick one and see which is better.

As I said, you have to select the paper profile in the photoshop color management section.

When I soft proof, I do so using 'Canon Pro9000 GL1' profile in Photoshop for the Glossy II paper. Then when I actually print, I select 'Photoshop Manages Colros' and then under Printer Profile, I select 'Canon Pro9000 GL1.'

 

[PurdueRy]

When I soft proof, I do so using 'Canon Pro9000 GL1' profile in Photoshop for the Glossy II paper. Then when I actually print, I select 'Photoshop Manages Colros' and then under Printer Profile, I select 'Canon Pro9000 GL1.'

That's not what you said originally

DO NOT convert to the printer profile. In the canon printer menu, I use the following settings:
-Color Handling: Photoshop Manages Colors.
-Printer Profile: Working RGB - sRGB IEC.....
-Rendering Intent: Perceptual
-No Black Point Compensation
Under 'Manual Color Adjustment' for the printer, I set it to:
-Color Correction: None

 

[corkyg]

Sometimes it pays to reset everything to default and stgrt over.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

From the OP it doesn't even sound like you're having color management problems. It sounds to me like you expect a printed photo to have the same dynamic range as your monitor, which isn't going to happen.

 

[thatsright]

From the OP it doesn't even sound like you're having color management problems. It sounds to me like you expect a printed photo to have the same dynamic range as your monitor, which isn't going to happen.

Oh no, not at all. My eye sees everything. On my monitor it sees maybe 50% of those colors my eyes see. On the printer its even less. So I'm not expecting the world, just something decent.

 

[thatsright]

Ok well tonight I will scrap everything and recalibrate. I will start with Bri 15, Con 65. Instead of sitting in a pitch black room like I do now, I will turn on a 40watt light lamp and place to the far right hand side of where I'm sitting.

Question: But I consistently seem to have shadow issues. If I'm getting dark shadows in my pics before calibration should I go higher or lower than 'Contrast=65?'

Is a luminance target of 120 too high? Or should I shoot for 90?

 

[PurdueRy]

Ok well tonight I will scrap everything and recalibrate. I will start with Bri 15, Con 65. Instead of sitting in a pitch black room like I do now, I will turn on a 40watt light lamp and place to the far right hand side of where I'm sitting.

Question: But I consistently seem to have shadow issues. If I'm getting dark shadows in my pics before calibration should I go higher or lower than 'Contrast=65?'

Is a luminance target of 120 too high? Or should I shoot for 90?

120 should be ok. You should check your brightness and contrast settings by using a dark value check and white check. There are numerous ones only that show white and black squares corresponding to the highest values and lower values possible. If your contrast and brightness are off, then you will either not maximize the dynamic range of your monitor or you will clip black or white values. Check these after resetting your video card LUT that was changed by the spyder3 program that runs on startup.