In case some of you dont know, the Supreme Court has already ruled on abortion. Also, Republicans are slimy bastards.

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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
A pro-life couple in their mid- forties trying to conceive have an 80% chance of abortion or miscarriage after EACH conception until she successfully makes it through 9 months.

I know a guy who has... I think 13 kids? From what I recall, the mentality there was that contraception is wrong and that everything is God's will. So, if they were to be pregnant in their 40's, the end result is God's will.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
He won’t be returning, they never do. It’s easy to defend your position when you ignore any scrutiny or contradictions.

The sad fact is that abortions should be reduced but not because of some moral argument about protecting babies. But rather they should be reduced because it’s good policy... so long as the reasons abortions are reduced is because women/men have better access to health care that allows them to prevent pregnancies in the first place, that reduce the amount of unprotected sex, that leads to healthier embryos being created, and because people are more financially secure to have children or better safety net programs exist.

However none of that will happen so long as the issue is treated as black and white, good vs bad.

No woman enjoys getting an abortion so why not support policies that give them options that will minimize their need for one in the first place.
I am guessing Ajay supports all those things. The problem for me is, even if we grant pro-lifers all kinds of concessions, like pretending God is real and an embryo is a person, restricting abortion still makes no logical sense. That's a tough pill to swallow though. That type of pill could result in divorce and broken families and who knows what else.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
How is that pro-life?
It only makes logical sense if the reason isn’t to prevent the deaths of “children” but to control women’s reproduction.
So, embryos and fetuses fail to remain viable as a product of natural defects in the mothers womb or in the embryo itself - over which we have little control (aside from abandoning normal sexual relations).
In a forced abortion procedure outlined by you, a chemical(s) in introduced into a women's body that triggers the abortion - over which we (she) has great control.

The real issue of 'control' here seem obvious to me. Creating a corner case to prove a general theory seems flawed by inception to me.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
Do you think people calling embryos 'babies' is disingenuous?
I don't know. I use embryo and fetus because that's their medical name for a given state of development. Obviously, expectant parents normally use the term baby.



I won't likely be back on the forum today. I just found out my niece, who has been in the hospital, is dying from multi-system organ failure.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,993
13,519
136
Because it is a question of murder. It's not what you do to or for yourself. It is for the child involved in that decision.
In terms of Jesus Points(tm), its the right thing to do!
Think about it for a second. No. Really. Think about it.
Those fetuses has NOT had a chance to dance with the devil yet.
Those souls are going STRAIGHT to heaven.

Amen.

Its only as we begin our journey through this existence that we begin to taint our souls, sin along the way.
So.
Abortion.
Auto-entry into heaven.

#WinningHeaven
#AbortionAllDay

Even the worst of psychopaths, maybe, maybe, maybe even those that would grow up to become conservative politicians is gonna get an auto-ticket into heaven ... if they get *nipped* as an abortion.

I feel its the moral thing to do.
 
Last edited:

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,116
14,484
146
So, embryos and fetuses fail to remain viable as a product of natural defects in the mothers womb or in the embryo itself - over which we have little control (aside from abandoning normal sexual relations).
In a forced abortion procedure outlined by you, a chemical(s) in introduced into a women's body that triggers the abortion - over which we (she) has great control.

The real issue of 'control' here seem obvious to me. Creating a corner case to prove a general theory seems flawed by inception to me.
Well that’s the case isn’t it. You rate not abandoning normal sexual relations (I’m assuming procreation here) above risking the death of a fetus or multiple fetuses.

The reality is you have total control over whether a fetus dies by abstaining from sex or using birth control unless a gun is being held to your head to procreate.

Finally, you call it a corner case but the truth is it’s just the way pregnancy works. If you want to call a fetus a child and life starting at conception then you choose to play Russian roulette (using the equivalent of 1-5 bullets) with your “child’s” life.

If I believed as you’d do I would find procreation immoral.

However since I don’t and I understand that until there is something like a functioning brain it’s not a person yet. By the time there is after 20+ weeks the risk of miscarriage way down in the single digits.
afp20071101p1341-f1.gif

I’m also not against third trimester abortions for fetal defects. It’s the parents responsibility to determine what to do about the imminent fate of their child and I don’t think the government or anyone else should be forcing a one size fits all policy on the traumatic end to a wanted pregnancy.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
In terms of Jesus Points(tm), its the right thing to do!
Think about it for a second. No. Really. Think about it.
Those fetuses has NOT had a chance to dance with the devil yet.
Those souls are going STRAIGHT to heaven.

Amen.

Its only as we begin our journey through this existence that we begin to taint our souls, sin along the way.
So.
Abortion.
Auto-entry into heaven.


#WinningHeaven
#AbortionAllDay

Even the worst of psychopaths, maybe, maybe, maybe even those that would grow up to become conservative politicians is gonna get an auto-ticket into heaven ... if they get *nipped* as an abortion.

I feel its the moral thing to do.
Even this highlights a huge problem with religious thinking on the issue. Let's pretend we have souls and we all line up for our turn to be born. Do we really believe this super smart God character set up a system where a soul enters at the moment of conception, and then when aborted or miscarried, or even just not successfully implanted, the soul returns and loses their one shot at life? Does anyone really believe that? Ridiculous.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,993
13,519
136
Even this highlights a huge problem with religious thinking on the issue. Let's pretend we have souls and we all line up for our turn to be born. Do we really believe this super smart God character set up a system where a soul enters at the moment of conception, and then when aborted or miscarried, or even just not successfully implanted, the soul returns and loses their one shot at life? Does anyone really believe that? Ridiculous.

Yes they do :). Thats why its hard not to poke fun at, you know, millimeter by millimeter, let the logical fallacies accumulate into a tower so high it literally reaches into the heavens and tickles gods balls :):).
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,221
4,452
136
In terms of Jesus Points(tm), its the right thing to do!
Think about it for a second. No. Really. Think about it.
Those fetuses has NOT had a chance to dance with the devil yet.
Those souls are going STRAIGHT to heaven.

Amen.

Its only as we begin our journey through this existence that we begin to taint our souls, sin along the way.
So.
Abortion.
Auto-entry into heaven.

#WinningHeaven
#AbortionAllDay

Even the worst of psychopaths, maybe, maybe, maybe even those that would grow up to become conservative politicians is gonna get an auto-ticket into heaven ... if they get *nipped* as an abortion.

I feel its the moral thing to do.
That really all depends on which Jesus you believe in. There are several different ones you know.
For example the fancy hat Jesus believers think that the fetuses go straight to hell because they were never dunked into the magic water.
Several others believe that we are all born with sin, and that only regularly repeated ritualistic cannibalisms can appease Gods wrath.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
If a pregnant woman attempts suicide, with her and the fetus surviving, should the pregnant woman be charged with and convicted of attempted murder?

If a pregnant woman attempts suicide, with the woman surviving and the fetus dying, should the pregnant woman be charged with and convicted of murder?

If the answer to those questions is no, then like it looks like on the "surface" and internally, it's the woman's fucking body and it's her choice of what she wants inside her body.

To meet the forced-birth people half-way, once the fetus is viable, then the state MUST pay for any and all costs of the pregnant woman, including all medical care, shelter, costs, food, etc., since at that point the state is treating the mother like an incubator.

If you're going to force a woman to do something with her body, then I believe that would fall under the 5th Amendment takings clause, “nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”

I think a woman's uterus should qualify as private property, and the state is unequivocally commandeering that thing for public use if they're limiting what the woman can do with it.

That's about as far as you need to go to "negotiate" on this shit. If the state is going to take a woman's uterus and do with it what it wants, then it better be paying up for it.

I think you are seeking to make something simple and logically consistent which inherently is neither.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
If a pregnant woman attempts suicide, with her and the fetus surviving, should the pregnant woman be charged with and convicted of attempted murder?

If a pregnant woman attempts suicide, with the woman surviving and the fetus dying, should the pregnant woman be charged with and convicted of murder?

If the answer to those questions is no, then like it looks like on the "surface" and internally, it's the woman's fucking body and it's her choice of what she wants inside her body.

To meet the forced-birth people half-way, once the fetus is viable, then the state MUST pay for any and all costs of the pregnant woman, including all medical care, shelter, costs, food, etc., since at that point the state is treating the mother like an incubator.

If you're going to force a woman to do something with her body, then I believe that would fall under the 5th Amendment takings clause, “nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”

I think a woman's uterus should qualify as private property, and the state is unequivocally commandeering that thing for public use if they're limiting what the woman can do with it.

That's about as far as you need to go to "negotiate" on this shit. If the state is going to take a woman's uterus and do with it what it wants, then it better be paying up for it.

There are many states that have laws on fetal homicide:

State Laws on Fetal Homicide and Penalty-enhancement for Crimes Against Pregnant Women (ncsl.org)

And people HAVE been prosecuted for it.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
Well that’s the case isn’t it. You rate not abandoning normal sexual relations (I’m assuming procreation here) above risking the death of a fetus or multiple fetuses.

The reality is you have total control over whether a fetus dies by abstaining from sex or using birth control unless a gun is being held to your head to procreate.

Finally, you call it a corner case but the truth is it’s just the way pregnancy works. If you want to call a fetus a child and life starting at conception then you choose to play Russian roulette (using the equivalent of 1-5 bullets) with your “child’s” life.

If I believed as you’d do I would find procreation immoral.

However since I don’t and I understand that until there is something like a functioning brain it’s not a person yet. By the time there is after 20+ weeks the risk of miscarriage way down in the single digits.
afp20071101p1341-f1.gif

I’m also not against third trimester abortions for fetal defects. It’s the parents responsibility to determine what to do about the imminent fate of their child and I don’t think the government or anyone else should be forcing a one size fits all policy on the traumatic end to a wanted pregnancy.

I'll be honest and say the first chart took me aback a bit at the high fetal/embryonic death rates. It's a very sad statistic. Nonetheless, the first case proceeds from right action belonging proper to the married state. If there is a life created from sexual relations, it is lost due to natural means, not by will or intention of the respective parents. So long as the couple consents to sex (their right) and to caring and providing for any offspring therein created, there is no moral offense. There is a right an proper ordering to human nature and human activity which is bound to and limited by our biological state in the natural world. This has nothing to do with controlling a women's body.

These abortive pills are controlling a women's body and forcing the death of the fetus/embryo. The creation of these chemical intervention is a grave and horrific evil.

I'm guessing we are going to have to agree to disagree on these points, but there it is.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,596
11,277
136
Here's the argument that I'd put to anyone who considers themself to be a staunch pro-lifer: If you want to stop abortion, then you need to create the kind of society where abortion is no longer necessary.

Until then, pro-life is an argument that wags its finger while not even vaguely caring about the consequences in our reality of whether abortion is legal or not. Society's ills are not going to go away because you successfully banned abortion. Abortion is legal in any sane country because the alternative in the reality we live in creates a far worse outcome.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,222
10,877
136
In terms of Jesus Points(tm), its the right thing to do!
Think about it for a second. No. Really. Think about it.
Those fetuses has NOT had a chance to dance with the devil yet.
Those souls are going STRAIGHT to heaven.

Amen.

Its only as we begin our journey through this existence that we begin to taint our souls, sin along the way.
So.
Abortion.
Auto-entry into heaven.

#WinningHeaven
#AbortionAllDay

Even the worst of psychopaths, maybe, maybe, maybe even those that would grow up to become conservative politicians is gonna get an auto-ticket into heaven ... if they get *nipped* as an abortion.

I feel its the moral thing to do.
I would love these Christians to point out in the bible both old and new testament that specifically talks about aborting a fetus as being against the will of God.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
...

These abortive pills are controlling a women's body and forcing the death of the fetus/embryo. The creation of these chemical intervention is a grave and horrific evil.

...
Why?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,730
28,907
136
Here's the argument that I'd put to anyone who considers themself to be a staunch pro-lifer: If you want to stop abortion, then you need to create the kind of society where abortion is no longer necessary.

Until then, pro-life is an argument that wags its finger while not even vaguely caring about the consequences in our reality of whether abortion is legal or not. Society's ills are not going to go away because you successfully banned abortion. Abortion is legal in any sane country because the alternative in the reality we live in creates a far worse outcome.
These same people also want to ban birth control
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
I narrowed down your post to the part I am questioning...
Okay. The first is self evident, these are powerful drugs. The second, creating drugs meant to do one thing - abort a fetus, is evil (as was the intent in making them). They have one job, to destroy a life.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
I would love these Christians to point out in the bible both old and new testament that specifically talks about aborting a fetus as being against the will of God.

I am not one of the aforementioned, but I'm pretty sure they could/would just point to things like "Thou shalt not kill" and that would be it. The idea is that from the point of fertilization, that embryo is living.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
Okay. The first is self evident, these are powerful drugs. The second, creating drugs meant to do one thing - abort a fetus, is evil (as was the intent in making them). They have one job, to destroy a life.
Is it moral to defend yourself from rape with lethal force?
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Okay. The first is self evident, these are powerful drugs. The second, creating drugs meant to do one thing - abort a fetus, is evil (as was the intent in making them). They have one job, to destroy a life.

Out of curiosity, does this disdain extend to birth control? If I remember correctly, the pill causes a fertilized egg to fail to stick to the uterine lining.

Also, how is your niece doing?