In Afghanistan we should have -- Opinion

Witling

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Jul 30, 2003
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I believe it was Charrison who asked me what I would have done about Osama bin Ladin instead of invading Afghanistan. I?m leaving this board but I felt I owed him an answer before going. I?ll respond to this thread for a while, but that?s it. Charrison (hope I?ve got the right board member), take your best shot.

If our goal was to capture Osama, I would have put maximum carrot and stick on Saudi Arabia to provide what help it could. Not what help it wanted to offer, but what help it could provide. I believe they could provide much more help than they want to.

Second, put pressure on the Pakistani government to have him put in a position where a lightening raid by a small, highly competent, U.S. military team could make a lightening raid and take him prisoner or, if that was not possible, kill him. If our troops, of which we?re so fond, but who failed so badly in rescuing the hostages in Iran, aren?t up to it, we could hire Israelis, who succeeded so well in rescuing hostages from Uganda. Second choice would have been to put maximum pressure on Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to fix his location, plant a homing device for GPS positioning and take him (and the rest of the village) out with a cruise missile.

The Taliban were drawn primarily from the Pushtun population, with which Pakistan had close contacts and supported. Despite all the great novels written to the contrary, I don?t think any European descended double agent could have penetrated the organization sufficiently deeply to accomplish this job. Hence the use of one of Saudi Arabia?s or Pakistan?s covert resources.

Pakistan has a big problem with drought. There are only three dams in the country and many rivers just flow into the desert and vanish. While I was perusing the Saudi and Pakistani possibilities, I would have made it clear to the Pushtun portion of the Afghanis that generous help with the drought, water supplies, and economic development would be available but for the fact that they harbored Osama and his ilk. I?d make the same clear to Pakistan. One of the reasons, among others, that Pakistan didn?t surrender Osama is the Middle Eastern belief in the right of a guest to protection while he?s a guest. That?s on the face of it. Under a large carrot and stick approach, I don?t think Afghanistan would have made too much of a fuss if Osama had been kidnapped by the West. The issue would be too volatile for Pakistanis to do the kidnap.
 

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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I know you are posting for Charrison, but I believe if you did not want others to post, you would have used PM.

That's a great idea and scenarios, and I'm sure others could come up with hundreds of other plans to take care of UBL. If you want a dissection of your idea though, here's mine: it relies too much on others. If SA or Pakistan refused to cooperate, then what? Or if they gave us wrong info, then what?
 

Fencer128

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Jun 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: miguel
I know you are posting for Charrison, but I believe if you did not want others to post, you would have used PM.

That's a great idea and scenarios, and I'm sure others could come up with hundreds of other plans to take care of UBL. If you want a dissection of your idea though, here's mine: it relies too much on others. If SA or Pakistan refused to cooperate, then what? Or if they gave us wrong info, then what?

I guess invasion, as it panned out, could always be plan B if a theoretical plan A didn't pan out?

Cheers,

Andy
 

Witling

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Jul 30, 2003
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Yes, Miguel. I wanted this to be open to comments. I've been (and still am) terribly critical of this administration's foreign policy. It didn't seem fair to criticize in public and then, when challenged for my ideas, reply in private.

EDITED. Sorry to not reply to your question. "If they gave us the wrong info, then what?" Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are both very shakey governments. If they don't produce, use the stick. Fund the internal opposition or, in the case of Pakistan, India and its claims. If the reveal the location and we use a cruise missle, make it clear that we'll keep the revelation quite if it was correct, but we leak information on our informant if it isn't correct. As for destroying an innocent village -- it's not a perfect world. At least the Muslim governments would get the ultimate blame for the mistake.
 

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: miguel
I know you are posting for Charrison, but I believe if you did not want others to post, you would have used PM.

That's a great idea and scenarios, and I'm sure others could come up with hundreds of other plans to take care of UBL. If you want a dissection of your idea though, here's mine: it relies too much on others. If SA or Pakistan refused to cooperate, then what? Or if they gave us wrong info, then what?

I guess invasion, as it panned out, could always be plan B if a theoretical plan A didn't pan out?

Cheers,

Andy

So then, what is the point? Plans are plans. Bush and the military planned it this way. Some people don't agree, some do. You cannot please everyone, no matter what you do.
 

Fencer128

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Jun 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: miguel
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Originally posted by: miguel
I know you are posting for Charrison, but I believe if you did not want others to post, you would have used PM.

That's a great idea and scenarios, and I'm sure others could come up with hundreds of other plans to take care of UBL. If you want a dissection of your idea though, here's mine: it relies too much on others. If SA or Pakistan refused to cooperate, then what? Or if they gave us wrong info, then what?

I guess invasion, as it panned out, could always be plan B if a theoretical plan A didn't pan out?

Cheers,

Andy

So then, what is the point? Plans are plans. Bush and the military planned it this way. Some people don't agree, some do. You cannot please everyone, no matter what you do.

I think the point is to minimise the danger and involvement of US soldiers and innocent civilians in all of this (i.e. move to limited violence on the smallest scale possible). Ways and means to achieve what is necessary that accomplish this in a greater extent as opposed to war are options that should be explored.

Cheers,

Andy
 

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: Fencer128
I think the point is to minimise the danger and involvement of US soldiers and innocent civilians in all of this (i.e. move to limited violence on the smallest scale possible). Ways and means to achieve what is necessary that accomplish this in a greater extent as opposed to war are options that should be explored.

I really don't want this thread to turn into another one, but c'mon - don't you remember all the negotiations that were being done with the Taliban to give up Bin Laden? Do you not remember the Americans that were held hostage by the Taliban? And were you a fly in the wall when they did the strategy meeting? I understand your perception is that they (Bush) are being irresponsible and firing their guns riding into town and leading young boys (and girls) to slaughter, but you MUST realize that your perception is just that. Who's to say they didn't go through 2,000 scenarios before they came up with invasion?

 

alexruiz

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Sep 21, 2001
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If I recall it correctly, the goverment of Afghanistan OFFERED to give Osama through a THIRD country IF they were shown proof of his guilt... As all of you know, Bush said NO, we are stronger and we have no obligation to show proof of anything to anyone (I am not talking Irak, this is Afghanistan....)
 

Witling

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Jul 30, 2003
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Miguel, see my previous edited post in which I answer your question about what if the informants give us bum information. But, to take exception with you when you wrote, "Plans are plans. Bush and the military planned it this way."

Yes, "plans are plans." "Deeds are also deeds." We're not talking about a plan to invade a sovereign (but woefully abused) nation, we're talking about actually invading it. Hell, if the administration had only planned it, I wouldn't be complaining.
 

Fencer128

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Jun 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: miguel
Originally posted by: Fencer128
I think the point is to minimise the danger and involvement of US soldiers and innocent civilians in all of this (i.e. move to limited violence on the smallest scale possible). Ways and means to achieve what is necessary that accomplish this in a greater extent as opposed to war are options that should be explored.

I really don't want this thread to turn into another one, but c'mon - don't you remember all the negotiations that were being done with the Taliban to give up Bin Laden? Do you not remember the Americans that were held hostage by the Taliban? And were you a fly in the wall when they did the strategy meeting? I understand your perception is that they (Bush) are being irresponsible and firing their guns riding into town and leading young boys (and girls) to slaughter, but you MUST realize that your perception is just that. Who's to say they didn't go through 2,000 scenarios before they came up with invasion?

This whole thread is about someone else's idea. That's what I'm/we're discussing. I'm not making any other points about the execution of the Afghanistan campaign.

Cheers,

Andy
 

miguel

Senior member
Nov 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: Whitling
Yes, Miguel. I wanted this to be open to comments. I've been (and still am) terribly critical of this administration's foreign policy. It didn't seem fair to criticize in public and then, when challenged for my ideas, reply in private.

EDITED. Sorry to not reply to your question. "If they gave us the wrong info, then what?" Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are both very shakey governments. If they don't produce, use the stick. Fund the internal opposition or, in the case of Pakistan, India and its claims. If the reveal the location and we use a cruise missle, make it clear that we'll keep the revelation quite if it was correct, but we leak information on our informant if it isn't correct. As for destroying an innocent village -- it's not a perfect world. At least the Muslim governments would get the ultimate blame for the mistake.

Can you put another shoe (or hat, I guess) on and try and criticize your own ideas. I can see so many things wrong with what you just wrote above:

* Use the stick - then what? Now we are attacking countires that had nothing to do with UBL or 9/11 directly.
* Fund the internal opposition - jeez, I can see the protests in the US now.
* India and its claims - so now the US has no integrity. We would support Pakistan if they helped us, regardless of what is right and wrong?
* "We leak information on our informant" - oh, that's just so bad, I can't believe YOU wrote that.
* Muslim gov'ts get the ultimate blame - you think that would even happen?

So, as I understand it, you are willing to be DISHONEST, BACKSTAB and PASS BLAME just to say Bush was wrong.

Oh my god, Whit.
 

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: Whitling
Miguel, see my previous edited post in which I answer your question about what if the informants give us bum information. But, to take exception with you when you wrote, "Plans are plans. Bush and the military planned it this way."

Yes, "plans are plans." "Deeds are also deeds." We're not talking about a plan to invade a sovereign (but woefully abused) nation, we're talking about actually invading it. Hell, if the administration had only planned it, I wouldn't be complaining.

Again, who's to say they didn't plan it? You? Are you an insider? Was he on the crapper when he said, "let's invade! That's that!" C'mon Whit, you are better than this.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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Miguel, I'm missing something here. There was a thread in which I criticized our actions in Afghanistan. Charrison asked me what I would do. This thread answers that. As far as I can see, this thread has nothing to do with what we actually did in Afghanistan (except to drag up horrible examples). What do you know that I don't know that makes what the Bush administration decided relevant? Even if they considered exactly what I've suggested, I still think we should have done that instead of what they did do.
 

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: Whitling
Miguel, I'm missing something here. There was a thread in which I criticized our actions in Afghanistan. Charrison asked me what I would do. This thread answers that. As far as I can see, this thread has nothing to do with what we actually did in Afghanistan (except to drag up horrible examples). What do you know that I don't know that makes what the Bush administration decided relevant? Even if they considered exactly what I've suggested, I still think we should have done that instead of what they did do.

You are right about the purpose of the thread. I was offering a critique of what you wrote. It's your job now to defend what you suggested. My post two previous to this one offered more critique of your idea. My quip about "just to say Bush was wrong" was not necessary. I do stand by the first part of that sentence:

So, as I understand it, you are willing to be DISHONEST, BACKSTAB and PASS BLAME

 

Witling

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Jul 30, 2003
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OK, Miguel. The thread seems to have slowed down a bit.

"Use the stick - then what? Now we are attacking countires that had nothing to do with UBL or 9/11 directly."

Response: Miguel, this is about Afghanistan and Osama bin Ladden. It has nothing to do with Iraq -- which I think was a much bigger error than Afghanistan.

?Fund the internal opposition - jeez, I can see the protests in the US now.?

Response: The protests wouldn?t be a patch off of the protests that occurred as the Gulf War II got prepared. It made absolutely no difference to policy.

?India and its claims - so now the US has no integrity. We would support Pakistan if they helped us, regardless of what is right and wrong??

Response: ?So now the US has no integrity.? This isn?t a recent phenomenon, it?s always been that way. And, countries -- all countries -- are usually administered on the basis of national interests, not integrity. I know of no exceptions. ?Regardless of what is right and wrong.? Let me leave this one with an observation that opinions about what is ?right? and what is ?wrong? sometimes differ. You may be aware that widely divergent opinions are held on the rightness of invading Iraq and Israel?s (and Palestinian) conduct. I happen to think that the actions I suggested are more ?right? than the actions we took.

?We leak information on our informant" - oh, that's just so bad, I can't believe YOU wrote that.?

Response: Why is that so hard to believe? We make it clear that we leak that they?re ?supporting us? if the information is false. If it?s true, we keep our mouths shut and take the blame. Meanwhile, Osama is out of action if they?ve told the truth.

?Muslim gov'ts get the ultimate blame - you think that would even happen??

Response: I don?t expect them to accept responsibility, but I?d have them deliver the rat out information in some traceable way -- like taping the conversation with an embassy official.

Miguel, none of my suggestions involve anything we haven't done before.
 

miguel

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Nov 2, 2001
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Whit,

Response: Miguel, this is about Afghanistan and Osama bin Ladden. It has nothing to do with Iraq -- which I think was a much bigger error than Afghanistan.

Who's talking about Iraq?

Response: The protests wouldn?t be a patch off of the protests that occurred as the Gulf War II got prepared. It made absolutely no difference to policy.

You are probably right.

Response: ?So now the US has no integrity.? This isn?t a recent phenonum, it?s always been that way. And, countries -- all countries -- are usually administered on the basis of national interests, not integrity. I know of no exceptions. ?Regardless of what is right and wrong.? Let me leave this one with an observation that opinions about what is ?right? and what is ?wrong? sometimes differ. You may be aware that widely divergent opinions are held on the rightness of invading Iraq and Israel?s (and Palestinian) conduct. I happen to think that the actions I suggested are more ?right? than the actions we took.

But you said back India and it's claims if Pakistan doesn't cooperate. Possibility 1: We actually support India - that means we won't back India if Pakistan does cooperate. Possibility 2: We actually support Pakistan - that means we'd go against what we thought was right if Pakistan doesn't cooperate. So you say we have no integrity anyway, so what's the difference, it's all about national interests. I agree. So, instead of supporting our national interests in either India or Pakistan, we'd do the opposite to accomplish a different goal. That still doesn't sound right to me. Kinda like backing Saddam in the Iran/Iraq war, right? You are saying you support that kind of thing? I could be wrong, but I swear you said otherwise before.

Response: Why is that so hard to believe? We make it clear that we leak that they?re ?supporting us? if the information is false. If it?s true, we keep our mouths shut and take the blame. Meanwhile, Osama is out of action if they?ve told the truth.

It's hard to believe that comes from you, because you are advocating behaviour that is dispicable and you would not support at all if Bush did something like that. This reminds me of the claims that Bush "outed" a certain senator's CIA wife...

Response: I don?t expect them to accept responsibility, but I?d have them deliver the rat out information in some traceable way -- like taping the conversation with an embassy official.

Fine, but most of the Arab world would believe us anyway, so that's really a non-threat to them.

The problem I have with your approach is that you are very willing to behave badly to accomplish a certain goal, beating around the bush so to speak, in order to, what, not invade Afghanistan? Personally, I like the direct approach. Forgive my analogy, but if you got a problem with someone, go deal with them. Don't do gossip, threaten others and undermine that person like some kind of snake. Go to the source and deal with the issue. OH well, I guess it's just a difference of opinion, but to be perfectly honest with you, it seems like your approach is really sneaky and underhanded and would complicate things to no end.

Miguel, none of my suggestions involve anything we haven't done before.

But are they right or wrong? Are we then doomed to continue doing bad things since we did them before? That logic fails me.